45 coaches online • Server time: 14:08
Index Search Usergroups Profile
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post DIBBL Season 24 (NZ ...goto Post BB2020 Death Zone ha...goto Post LitBowl Online 2021
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Poll
Do you agree with most of the points indicated in this thread?
yes
5%
 5%  [ 9 ]
No
65%
 65%  [ 101 ]
I don't care: i will play BB whatever be the rules
24%
 24%  [ 38 ]
I will abandon BB2020 in any case
3%
 3%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 154


Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 06:16 Reply with quote Back to top

YOU PROVE OUR POINT.
You are SO OBTUSE that you don't even know that you ALREADY KNOW you are WRONG.
The crazy random events and the DICE are the GREAT EQUALIZERS of the game.

A Regular Person can BEAT the Kasparov's of this game. You don't have t be Bobby Fischer to have a chance.
You are so CLUELESS to not understand this... YET you claim to recognize this very phenomena as FACT.

HOW DARE YOU EVEN TRY to argue your STUPID POINT when you don't believe it yourself. You a a man of LOW to NO integrity.



argos_72 wrote:
[quote="Nelphine"

No. Then, the players who are 'average' would have no incentive to play. They know they would simply lose to these 'legend' players.

There is not enough BB players, let alone on this site, to be able to do that. We would need many times the size of our current player base to support that.

Additionally, legend is a title given to the top small percentage of players - it has nothing to do with their win rate. It means almost no one has a better win rate. Your proposal would do literally nothing to change who has the title.


in Box you do not decide to whom to play. Because the Box contains all type of players and there are a lot of players of average CR. It is good place to make statistics.
Because there are not so many Legend players in the box it is interesting to see their win rate in general
I have wathched several matches played by legend players vs average players (to learn how to play) and i have realized that every time soem of these experienced players (who play veeeery veeeery well) lose or make a draw is because a crazy events happen.
When two players of the same level play it can be that randomicity is sometimes decide the game.[/quote]
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 06:33 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:
Just a correction: the crowd send the ball who go out with a 2D6 roll. So in principle from 2 to 12 squares. I told in one of my previous post 1D6 which is not correct.
This is even worst by the way, and a very simply modification will be that the ball will be throw in by 1D6 only and in the same part of the pitch (which I think was already the case in the past...)



A typical HUMAN from REAL LIFE that is a Quarterback, a Punter or a Kicker from American Football could Throw, Punt or Kick the ball that far and they DO SO on a regular basis,
Here again YOUR IGNORANCE of REALITY has allowed your lack of knowledge and integrity to convince you that this is CRAZINESS.
With no Fantasy Elements THIS can be done.
There are MORE current and former Throwers, Kickers and Punters in the CROWD at an ACTUAL GAME than their are on the FIELD. But YOU think they could NEVER be the 1 that gets the ball in the crowd. And that none of their friends would get the ball and hand it to them to watch them send in flying on a drunken lark.
Your argument is PATHETIC and based on you lack of understanding of the game as a BAD COACH.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 06:39 Reply with quote Back to top

YOU don't have to sit there for 50 minutes BLAH BLAH BLAH
YOU can CONCEDE like a whiny baby and suffer the potential consequences.
Once again YOUR POINT IS GARBAGE and you have NO INTEGRITY because you KNOW you can CONCEDE.
Go play Chess.



argos_72 wrote:
XpherAndTheAxes wrote:


As for pitch invasion, imagine you are a big ogre (shouldnt be too bad, just try to imagine a time you are angry and blinded by it, or drunk and annoyed), your team is losing or the game is boring and you decide to spice it up, you and a few of your big ogre mates trample on to the pitch and start beating people up, leaving them stunned on the floor, you then trod back to your seats and watch the game with a bit of extra blood involved.

Its a game about imagination and roleplaying more than it is about sitting on a pile of CR with a godlike winrate. Bad weather happens, angry ogre fans happens, fans with weapons happens, its a filthy game which attracts the worst people from the fantasy universe, and as it is prayers to the god of violent sport, there should be a bit of chaos, and random brutal.luck


would be fun if you have not then to sit and wait 30 minutes because the agony will end. Winning a game because pitch invasion in my favour make not me happy Anyway G&W has hopefully reviewed this rule. Let's see if the mitigation of the number of players mzx 3 to be stunned. Still roll a D6 to decide who suffer most the pitch invasion is an introduction of unnecessary chaos. If we want to mantian the pitch invasion let's say simplY: both team roll 1D6 and random 1D3 players are stunned if results is greater than 5. I still do not understand why this is fun but anyway.... better then in the past
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 06:46 Reply with quote Back to top

The results are NOT stupid. It is you opinion of them that is STUPID
.
Go play Chess. Lose to Kasparov every time. Beat your kid Brother every time. Hooray what fun.

OR GROW UP and play Blood Bowl... beat Kasparov sometimes and risk losing to your Kid Brother sometimes.

Just stop whining like a Baby and trying to RUIN Blood Bowl by turning it into Chess just because you SUCK at Blood Bowl and blame it random events.





argos_72 wrote:
XpherAndTheAxes wrote:



"would be fun if you have not then to sit and wait 30 minutes because the agony will end." it is a game, and sometimes bad things happen in games,


when in the kick off table 3 event on 12 are completely stupid (pitch invasion, throw a rock, perfect defence) 25% is not "sometime" mens that "in average" every 4 kick off you suffer such stupid event. G&W removed the "throw a rock" in the kick off table probably they too understand how much is stupid such thingh. Still I think pitch invasion and perfect defence is not usefull in this game. It will simply make the game more boring for the player who suffer this "further casualty".
I do not understand why people like so much pitch invasion or perfect defence or throw a rock.
cromag



Joined: Jan 21, 2021

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 06:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
-----


Are you doing okay mate?

_________________
Always be blocking / Never ever trust your dice / Fear is the killer.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 06:59 Reply with quote Back to top

cromag wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
-----


Are you doing okay mate?



Doing GREAT. Just arguing with a Troll as I am discovering.
The best part is I have totally exposed that now.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 10:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
YOU PROVE OUR POINT.
You are SO OBTUSE that you don't even know that you ALREADY KNOW you are WRONG.


you can calm down maybe...? Not sure why we have to enter in this mood
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 12:02 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the policy of this site forbidden to insult people in a public forum calling them TROLL or OBTUSE or IDIOT just because they express an opinion. I consider some kick off events comics or stupid. This is a critic to the rules not to the person.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 13:25 Reply with quote Back to top

LordHugo wrote:
I voted no, but still want to congratulate you for identifying particular aspects and elaborating on them, in order to make this great game even better. Good luck next time!


Thanks, appreciated.
Maybe I am little bit too critics some time but I think some small changes would be not so bad. Then of course I will continue playing the game based on the official rules or the fumbbl rules anyway.

Example: we can always argue that Taxes are too much high. But till there is the law in a democracy approved by majority who says that taxes must be payed we pay for this Smile
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 15:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst has boiled over there and reformed as a troll himself..

The point about games between players of similar level often having luck be a big factor in the result is a fair point. If they are not doing big errors or works of genius a couple of double skulls can change the game.
At least kickoff table has been tweaked. That will help with some of the extreme problems you can you get before even moving players.

I think the randomness, along with the relatively complicated rules and longish matches limits the game's chances of being even more popular than it is. Though fantasy element already puts it in one niche. BUT it is also part of the appeal and why it is still a popular game that is played in massive tournaments. You can be a strong player but still have problems that occur in a match that you may not be able to solve.

_________________
A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.
naytsyrhc



Joined: Jun 09, 2020

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 15:39 Reply with quote Back to top

I did not read every post, so maybe some points have been made already.

1st: change from D6 to D8. I don't think, that this is necessary. I do understand your problem with the 16.7% chance of always failing and 16.7% of always succeeding (2.7% with RR). Sounds very random indeed, but I agree with probably a lot of people: BB is not chess. It is a dice game and it has to be random to a certain degree. A D8 would be 12.5% chance of always failing/succeeding (1.5% with RR). Is that that much better and thus worth the change?

2nd: the random Kick-Off events have been changed to be less random in BB2020. A Blitz/Quick Snap/Perfect Defence does not have that big effect anymore. I think, that this is a good change. Let's see that in action, if it already helps...

3rd: Throw-In I'd love to have it changed to something like D6 (as now) for direction, D8 for distance. Or maybe even D6 for direction and D6+3 or something like that. It would be slightly less random and "realistic".

4th: Kick. Why shouldn't it be possible for kicker to kick short? I think it's totally valid to have the ball deviate from designated kicking goal in ALL directions. Maybe it would be more realistic, if I had the chance to change it, I'd let the ball scatter 3 times for 2 fields in D8 direction each and for a kicker with kick only once, but I'm also fine with current rules.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 15:56 Reply with quote Back to top

naytsyrhc wrote:
I did not read every post, so maybe some points have been made already.

1st: change from D6 to D8. I don't think, that this is necessary. I do understand your problem with the 16.7% chance of always failing and 16.7% of always succeeding (2.7% with RR). Sounds very random indeed, but I agree with probably a lot of people: BB is not chess. It is a dice game and it has to be random to a certain degree. A D8 would be 12.5% chance of always failing/succeeding (1.5% with RR). Is that that much better and thus worth the change?

Yes, for at least 2 reasons:
1) Reducing the automatic failure/success from 16.66% to 12.5% seems minor, but it makes a big difference in case of rerolling the dice/trying a sequence of actions. Suddenly that 4.16% % difference makes the overall % sequence change drastically.
For example, consider this: imagine you fail just with 1 a pick up. With d6 you fail 1/6, with d8 1/8, not a drastic difference. Let's use a rr: suddenly the failure chance with the d6 is 1/36, with d8 is 1/64 due to the fact you are multiplying 6 sides by 6 and 8 sides by 8. On single die roll you will not notice it much, when a sequence or rr is involved, you will.

2) a d8 can fit more modifiers because it has 8 sides, while a d6 just 6. This could allow to have a better passing mechanic than the current one (a Thrower can have Passing skills improving the passing chance with modifiers, the fumble would be less likely too).


Alternatively, a d10 could be used, but:
- it's not included in the BB box;
- to make a d10 system work properly you would need some modifiers, which would make harder to play the TT version (and would require some team building, which is not compatible with the NAF tournament format)
- the spirit of "anything is possible" with automatic success or failure could be reduced too much with the d10: automatic failure and success would be 10%.
It is doable, but, considering the taste of the majority of people playing BB, I don't think it would be liked.

Using dice with more than 10 sides would shift BB from a tabletop game towards a more "serious" RPG game, which is not what people look for when they play it, as far as I know. BB would lose some "playing pace" due to calculating modifiers etc. during TT game.
This is why I didn't suggest other dice such as d12, d16, d20, d100.

Anyway, it's possible to use a more reliable d6 system by rolling more d6s and counting successes and failures (a system used by Shadowrun the rpg): for example, you could roll as many d6s as your AG characteristic and counting the dice which roll 4+.
If at least 1 on 3 of the d6s roll 4+ the AG test is passed.
By rolling more d6 the distribution is improved and there is less variance than by rolling a single d6 for an AG test (or another test).
naytsyrhc



Joined: Jun 09, 2020

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 16:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
Anyway, it's possible to use a more reliable d6 system by rolling more d6s and counting successes and failures (a system used by Shadowrun the rpg): for example, you could roll as many d6s as your AG characteristic and counting the dice which roll 4+.


Funny that you refer to shadowrun dice system. I was up to do the same, but with different conclusion. Vampire the Masquerade for example uses (used?) a similar system like Shadowrun (counting successes), but it used D10 instead of D6 and I liked that much more than the D6 System.

Anyway. I already said, that with RR chances would drop to almost half (2.7% opposed to 1.5%), but I still think, that it is minor. Not if you look at the numbers, but for the game in general. What do you think will happen, when changing the chances of a snake-eye from 2.7% to 1.5%? It will increase whining about bad luck and increase more "risky" play style (i.e. I will first pick up on a 2+ and position later). That's why I think, it's good, a turnover can occur with a chance of 2.7%. It will make you think about better positioning. Wink
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 16:41 Reply with quote Back to top

I would use this D8 Agility table:

AG 6: 2+, AG 5: 3+, AG 4: 4+, AG 3: 5+, AG 2: 6+, AG 1: 7+
modifiers are the same (+1 to Dodge roll, +1 to Pick Up roll etc.)
1 before modification: automatic failure
8 before modification: automatic success

so, to 2+ pick up you would need AG 5 and AG 5 will be rare with bb2020. This means that with AG 4 (the most common higher-than-average AG) the pick up is 75% (3+ on D8 ), compared to 83.3% with AG 4 and using the D6 system (2+ on D6).
My system actually makes you think more about better positioning.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2021 - 17:35 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
YOU PROVE OUR POINT.
You are SO OBTUSE that you don't even know that you ALREADY KNOW you are WRONG.


you can calm down maybe...? Not sure why we have to enter in this mood



No. We MUST enter this "mood" because you insist on something that you KNOW is not TRUE, You have just admitted to it and it has been pointed out to you because you insist on the FALSE NARRATIVE.

And here you are again to further insist on what you have just admitted is FAKSE,

It is not an a insult to state things the way they are, You are being obtuse and it is you who is violating site policy to continue so. And the common term for behaving that way is known as Trolling.

I have just stated things the way that they are.

AND I DID NOT call you those things. I said your OPINION is being Trolled (by you).
And I never called you an idiot. I said you are ignorant of Football and of the whole point of Blood Bowl's randomness. You clearly do not watch American Football so again I am only stating a FACT. You ARE ignorant of it. Just as I am ignorant of how to speak Chinese. Being ignorant of something does not make one an idiot.

You are once again FALSE and Trolling as evidenced by you being false and trolling.
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic