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DonnyRainboe



Joined: Sep 13, 2011

Post 9 Posted: Aug 20, 2020 - 04:29 Reply with quote Back to top

soultoken wrote:
In a min max environment I guess we will be going for random skills and firing players that get a skill you don't like. Maybe not on Blitzers but linemen etc i could see this being a thing.


Agree.

This#
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 20, 2020 - 05:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Carnis wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:

*Urge to spite increases*

"I'll show you competitive play with my legion of sneaky git pro elf linemen!"

I have 4 cents to add to this discussion:

1) Go read the new sneaky git rules and delete above comment. Sneaky git in 2020 is buffed in a very significant and meaningful way, becoming the best fouling skill of new Blood Bowl (you are immune to sendoffs for no reason, you are less likely to sent off after killing your opponent, you can run to safety after fouling). Better than dirty player +2 on the deathroller.

2) This random skillups was a good idea / chance to cleanup the skilltable. Other than general skills (where I would only delete FEND), much of the skills available are so worth nothing that essentially taking a random skill means buying a 6spp skill for 30spp.

Skills I would instantly delete from the random table are too many to name, but multiple block is the prime offender being useless to ultimately everyone (even a dark elf assassin is better with block/dodge for survival & sidestep for free blocks). edit: marginally useful to treemen

3) Comment about SPP hoarders and SPP avoiders was a good one, I think we will have dwarf runners picking their favourite stats (because they are SPP hoarders), meaning every dwarf team will run a block, dodge, movement8 runner after 10ish games. Whereas other more balanced carry teams like orks will be splitting the SPP all round which means merry mb guard spam will be ubiquitous and orks will be very uniform with 0 stats in the early stages.

4) Ogres might be viable for random primary after taking a 40k block for first skill.


I was not being ironic. I am hella stoked for SG...Love fouling, truly a joy of the game.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 20, 2020 - 08:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Yup. SG = foul every turn

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CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 26, 2020 - 16:48 Reply with quote Back to top

I think most things have already been said but here is my thoughts on the matter from a tabletop perspective.

First of all I think that the game is primarily balanced around the tabletop to begin with so playing somewhere about 8-16 games a season probably is what the game is balanced around before you have to redraft players.

So when you discuss player progression you need to take into account how long you think that particular players will stay with a team, for how many season will you be able to pay for their services.

Different players will probably benefit more or less for selecting random skills than others. A player that can easily rack up 30+ SPP a season you probably can wait to skill up and pick specific strong skills with allot easier even if they become more expensive... but how many seasons will you be able to keep them around?

It also is really difficult to know how useful a Strip Ball, Dauntless lineman can be rather than one with just Block for the same TV cost. You actually might find this lineman have a rather interesting role in your team you would never contemplate before you had that player. This player have one role to play against a strong team and another against a fast running team.

There also is opportunity cost... the fact that you gain skills early in a season can be quite significant, especially on players that might only get a few SPP each season. If your league are say 10-12 games long then most linemans might not be able to scrape up more than 6-8 SPP... and if you select a randomly generated skill you get more skills for more games. In a league this is quite important.

Blood Bowl are not balanced around perpetual leagues or teams of very high TV. In those environments you simply will have to accept that the rules as written are not really well balanced and that some sort of house rules need to be in place or imbalances just have to be accepted the way they are.

In my opinion the choice of skills and whether you take random or selected skills will depend highly on how fast players gain SPP and how many games per season you generally play. So, it will be very difficult to say how different players will skill up.
If you also play in a continuous league settings where teams are redrafted between seasons you will have to think about the future and for how long you expect to keep players around and how often you replace them or keep them on your roster.
Cyrus-Havoc



Joined: Sep 15, 2006

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2020 - 15:22 Reply with quote Back to top

You will not be able to keep many players at the end of the season so surely it's best to get something in the way of skills on those you know won't be kept.
The other point to remember is the fun involved in random skills.
I will certainly try random skills maybe even on a whole team!
After season two you will be able to keep even fewer players.

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Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2020 - 21:06 Reply with quote Back to top

For the purpose of minmaxing, if one team has a kicker, a wrestler, a dirty player that all cost 10k less than the other side's hand picked normal-skilled chaps, that basically means a free chosen secondary skill. So this introduces a different element of luck in team tailoring, which substitutes the previous "luck" element in getting doubles and stats.

There's now an element of choice when you are deciding to attempt to get the advantage or instead playing it safe but more costly, which wasn't there before.

Do you feel lucky, punk?
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 29, 2020 - 15:38 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Carnis wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:

*Urge to spite increases*

"I'll show you competitive play with my legion of sneaky git pro elf linemen!"

I have 4 cents to add to this discussion:

1) Go read the new sneaky git rules and delete above comment. Sneaky git in 2020 is buffed in a very significant and meaningful way, becoming the best fouling skill of new Blood Bowl (you are immune to sendoffs for no reason, you are less likely to sent off after killing your opponent, you can run to safety after fouling). Better than dirty player +2 on the deathroller.

2) This random skillups was a good idea / chance to cleanup the skilltable. Other than general skills (where I would only delete FEND), much of the skills available are so worth nothing that essentially taking a random skill means buying a 6spp skill for 30spp.

Skills I would instantly delete from the random table are too many to name, but multiple block is the prime offender being useless to ultimately everyone (even a dark elf assassin is better with block/dodge for survival & sidestep for free blocks). edit: marginally useful to treemen

3) Comment about SPP hoarders and SPP avoiders was a good one, I think we will have dwarf runners picking their favourite stats (because they are SPP hoarders), meaning every dwarf team will run a block, dodge, movement8 runner after 10ish games. Whereas other more balanced carry teams like orks will be splitting the SPP all round which means merry mb guard spam will be ubiquitous and orks will be very uniform with 0 stats in the early stages.

4) Ogres might be viable for random primary after taking a 40k block for first skill.


I was not being ironic. I am hella stoked for SG...Love fouling, truly a joy of the game.


You can foul now in Turn 16 and dance with the remaining Movement.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 29, 2020 - 15:51 Reply with quote Back to top

nooo you still need the run up on turn 16! RUN UP!
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 20, 2021 - 03:44 Reply with quote Back to top

I think you have the right idea.

You make PLANS with a few players. You go random with most of the rest.
If you get a good Random Skill... great.
If you get a garbage Random Skill... why Fire? Stick him n the LOS and let your opponent "Fire" him for you.

And maybe you dump him in the Re-Ups ofc



Rawlf wrote:
I do not see a lot of random skilling and firing players coming. 15 games is a very short time for this and 10k TV dont seem to hurt too much.

In 15 games and with random MVPs, how many players can you hope to develop? Maybe 4-6? Probably 4 rather than 6. But what do you do if the MVP goes to John Lino whom you are not planning with? Keep his 4spp unused is one option, then you can redraft him at +20k cost after the season. Not terribly appealing. Or you could spin the wheel of fortune and either strike gold with block or something, at minmax value, or something useful you didnt plan with like kick or dp, also at minmax cost, or maybe you get something almost completely useless. Then you have a piece of LOS-meat at +10k that you wont redraft (if he lives that long) or maybe even do replace after all if you happen to drown in money.

I can also see this in tournaments, when you spend your last spp-coins to max out your team. If you asume you wont get enough spp for a picked primary before the tourney ends, why not go for the random one that might at least help a little.
Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Jul 20, 2021 - 11:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
I think you have the right idea.

You make PLANS with a few players. You go random with most of the rest.
If you get a good Random Skill... great.
If you get a garbage Random Skill... why Fire? Stick him n the LOS and let your opponent "Fire" him for you.

Indeed.

My advice would be not to go for random skills if you think the potential outcome is extremely unlikely to be worth it.

In that case it's just better to bank your points and go for something you know for certain to be a worthwhile investment.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 02, 2021 - 02:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
I think you have the right idea.

You make PLANS with a few players. You go random with most of the rest.
If you get a good Random Skill... great.
If you get a garbage Random Skill... why Fire? Stick him n the LOS and let your opponent "Fire" him for you.

Indeed.

My advice would be not to go for random skills if you think the potential outcome is extremely unlikely to be worth it.

In that case it's just better to bank your points and go for something you know for certain to be a worthwhile investment.


In my opinion this depends entirely on the environment you play in. If you play in say an 8 game per season League there is no reason to not pick a random skill on any player you are not sure will be able to get much if any SPP during the season.

The type of player obviously depend on the team that you play with. But if I get an MVP on a lineman on my current Imperial Nobility team (local tabletop league) I don't hesitate to give them a random skill. So far in my case it has been Dauntless, Dirty Player and Kick... so I have been somewhat lucky but not overly so. Of all the team in our league most people seem to get at least a few quite useful skills for only 10k a piece all the time. I think people concentrate too much on the occasionally really bad skills.

I also see that most people pick skills when they get the opportunity to do so... say if you have 2SPP from a casualty and later get an MVP on them.

I would likely not pick a random skill for my Blitzer, I know I will get a decent amount of skills on them as they do almost all of my touchdowns. Same usually go for my Bodyguards as I want Guard on them badly and they also block often enough they often get the opportunity to earn some extra SPP from Casualties and even the odd touchdown. But after Guard they just get random skills as they really don't skill very fast in general. The Ogre in my team are the same, Guard and then just random strength... I don't plan to rehire the Ogre anyway as it is just a roadblock there to absorb hits, a rookie Ogre do just fine. I rather keep key players such as Throwers, Blitzers and a few Bodygurads with Guard skill and maybe some good random skills.

If I'm only a few games from the end of the season I would gladly give a random skill to someone I probably will not rehire... if they get a good skill I can reconsider.

A few random skills with little use is not really problematic as you will always end up with more useful skills than not in general unless you are really unlucky... in worst case you just fire a player or two and you certainly don't rehire them come next season.

Random skills really is an important aspect to team development, especially in tabletop leagues where you play way less games per season in general. I also think this is the way it was designed to work and why it work so well in that environment. If you start playing like 16-20 games a season I don't think the rules as written work all that well. In my opinion the rules as written work best in the range of 8-12 games per season not much ore than that.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 02, 2021 - 05:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Many skills in bloodbowl are best chosen in combination with other skills down the track.

E.g.
Two Heads + Dodge
Pass + Accurate
Wrestle + Tackle (+ Dauntless etc)
Sneaky Git + Wrestle
Juggernaut + Frenzy
Pass Block + Catch

Maybe a decent approach is to pick the first skill randomly, THEN choose a skill or stat next, whatever best compliments the skill randomly obtained first? Also for linemen it may make more sense to go random than with positionals for the same reason.

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Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Aug 04, 2021 - 07:41 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
In my opinion this depends entirely on the environment you play in. If you play in say an 8 game per season League there is no reason to not pick a random skill on any player you are not sure will be able to get much if any SPP during the season.

I just thought about it - why not keep the points and redraft that player for the next season (provided you have money to spare)?

CAB wrote:
The type of player obviously depend on the team that you play with. But if I get an MVP on a lineman on my current Imperial Nobility team (local tabletop league) I don't hesitate to give them a random skill. So far in my case it has been Dauntless, Dirty Player and Kick... so I have been somewhat lucky but not overly so. Of all the team in our league most people seem to get at least a few quite useful skills for only 10k a piece all the time. I think people concentrate too much on the occasionally really bad skills.

Human or Imperial Linemen going for a random skill as their first pick could be very worthwhile, but that can change when you already have a bunch of players with various skills. Having Kick is nice. Having two Kicks is less so.

It's also the case of specializing certain players by giving them skills which synergize with what they already have, rather than ending up with a whole bunch of disjointed skills. That said, having cheaper skills can certainly incentivize people to try their luck and they might get some exotic mishmash you wouldn't expect to play against under normal circumstances. At the very least it is going to be interesting.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2021 - 11:57 Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="Bellenrode"]
CAB wrote:
In my opinion this
I just thought about it - why not keep the points and redraft that player for the next season (provided you have money to spare)?


In my opinion it is about opportunity... I currently play in an 8-9 game tabletop league which I think are quite common in tabletop. So have allot of skills is sort of a luxury for most players. So roll for that random to see of you like to rehire them for next season is probably better most of the time.

You want to save that money for your key players... in my case it is my Blitzers, Throwers and Body Guards. On the Body Guards I only choose Guard and then random strength skills for example. Throwers and Blitzers get only choose skills. Linemen all random as soon as they can get something. Ogre is also Guard and then random streangth skills as I probably will not rehire him between seasons.
Eight games don't produce enough SPP for allot of advancement for most of the players in a team.



Bellenrode wrote:

Human or Imperial Linemen going for a random skill as their first pick could be very worthwhile, but that can change when you already have a bunch of players with various skills. Having Kick is nice. Having two Kicks is less so.

It's also the case of specializing certain players by giving them skills which synergize with what they already have, rather than ending up with a whole bunch of disjointed skills. That said, having cheaper skills can certainly incentivize people to try their luck and they might get some exotic mishmash you wouldn't expect to play against under normal circumstances. At the very least it is going to be interesting.


I think that people are in general concentrating too much on the odd really unlucky rolls rather than what you see in practice. In practice what I have seen so far is that random skill on low cost players tend to produce some really interesting choices and for a very low team value cost. If you wait you might simply never get the opportunity to do anything with them at all.

It often is better to get a skill in game two that are occasionally used than no skills at all the entire season accept that last game perhaps.

The fact is you don't know if a player will get any more SPP in the season or not.

If you play 20 games in a season I don't think the rules as written become sensible... they probably work best with around 10 games a season.

We have to understand that the rules are written as a tabletop game and primarily intended for that purpose. In real life you are probably lucky to play one game a week, most probably don't play more than one a month.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2021 - 12:26 Reply with quote Back to top

If the rules are written as tabletop game where you don't play lot of games then they should have not even bothered with progression and 6 skill slots because realistically players will not manage to develop a lot. If the game is supposed to be played in short seasons then improving the rosters' balance at low TV would have been way better than this bad Season Redraft system.
Why playing a team without starting skills for 10 games just to fire some players who earned the basic skills after game 10? It just encourages playing top tier 1 teams with many basic skills, thus reducing the racial variety of a league.

Designer: "Hey, you can skill up your players in BB."

Gamer: "Cool, progression adds another layer to the game and allows to customize your players!"

Designer: "But, after 10 games, you have to fire some players and you will barely skill up some of them anyway."


Too many skills tend to break the game, but not enough skills make some teams not worth to be played at all.
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