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CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 01:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Who cares about what teams are better than other teams... the imbalance of the team is built into the concept of the game. If all you care about is winning the League then just pick the team you think have the best chance of winning. No one disputes the fact there are a bunch of teams that are generally better than the other teams. I just say the differences in general are small enough that in the grand scheme of things it does not matter all that much.

And no... you are not objective at all... all you say is a personal opinion about random skills and team progression. The experience we had so far is that random skills on linemen and to some extent Big Guys actually are quite valuable. In real practice you see most teams actually have decent random skills that actually are useful... it also help with putting some colour and differences on the teams.

I understand that you don't "like" random skills on lineman, that does not mean it is not useful, that is very different. No one will force you to use it, it is your loss.

You just look at this from a TV matchmaking perspective and simply don't seem willing to accept that.

I would just say that for TV matchmaking there should be different rules and team progression and be done with it. For me TV matchmaking is boring and not what Blood Bowl is about, neither is the rules written with it in mind. At least we know for sure the rules are not written with TV matchmaking in mind... it certainly is not mentioned anywhere in the books... Wink
stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 09:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Winning games is the only real definition of playing competative. CR is a byproduct of winning. Going in with a 10TV advantage on a random skill should increase your chance of winning
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 10:59 Reply with quote Back to top

stej wrote:
Winning games is the only real definition of playing competative. CR is a byproduct of winning. Going in with a 10TV advantage on a random skill should increase your chance of winning


How do you define a 10TV advantage?!?

Just because one team is worth 10TV more than the other does not mean you have an advantage in the actual game as you will actually have something of worth for that 10TV (although randomly given).

10TV really don't give the opposing player ANY advantage in any way in normal BB. I really don't care about CR or TV matchmaking as the rules are not written for that.

I gladly take five players with random skills for the opponent to get 50k inducements in any game. It's not very important to keep TV low in a private League gaming environment, you also know what teams you will face so there are huge differences.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 11:18 Reply with quote Back to top

stej wrote:
Winning games is the only real definition of playing competative. CR is a byproduct of winning. Going in with a 10TV advantage on a random skill should increase your chance of winning


However, I think his complaint is that if you lose when you have a 10TV advantage, your CR drops more because you lost to the underdog. Therefore having a skill that only marginally helps you win could cost you more CR.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 11:43 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
If all you care about is winning the League then just pick the team you think have the best chance of winning.

I like to win and to have fun playing not just few races, but many (apart from the tier 3, because the effort/CR-gain is not worth it in TVMM).
Since the BB2020 rules hamper the building of teams who could be reasonably competitive over time then I have a problem with the rules.
Also, it's not just a personal problem of boredom being forced to play few competitive races, the variety of opponent races is low as well, because, as we know, people are attracted by the strong teams.

CAB wrote:
No one disputes the fact there are a bunch of teams that are generally better than the other teams. I just say the differences in general are small enough that in the grand scheme of things it does not matter all that much.

There are always been more and less competitive races over the different ruleset. My concern is that with BB2020 the range of reasonably competitive teams has been narrowed down due to Season Redraft and random MVP.

CAB wrote:
And no... you are not objective at all... all you say is a personal opinion about random skills and team progression.

Personal opinion backed up by actual gameplay and direct experience of the BB2020 rules. I have been waiting to play BB2020 before having an opinion. Now that I have fully experienced the level up system I can dismiss it as a clunky one for no real benefit.
There was more "skill building creativity" with old system than with the BB2020 one. There was no need to invent such a skill up system if in the end people are forced to take the few efficient skills. No double rolls and no stats (not a fan of stats, but having just a single stat on a player, from time to time, would have provided a bit of diversity and fun). Not advocating stat freaks or super farmed players, but not a fan of super-ordinary skill building either.

CAB wrote:
I would just say that for TV matchmaking there should be different rules and team progression and be done with it.

Indeed. But I have played in scheduled private leagues as well with Wood Elves, Dark Elves and Khemri (CRP, not BB2020).
I learned that, even in private league, careful TV-management matters.
A TV bloat of 20 or 40 could means facing a Wizard, because you are not matched by same TV in private leagues, so the difference can be even higher than in perpetual league MM. I could even add that, knowing the TV of my next opponent, I could decide whether to take a certain skill or to buy a temporary A.Coach/Cheerleader just for the next game.
So, TV management matters in any environment.
It's not as simple as "let's randomize all the skills we can as soon as possible".
There is no strict correlation between having more skills and having a more effective roster.
Having more skills matters if they are good for their TV AND effective on that specific player.
Strip Ball on a Flesh Golem or an Orc Lino is not as effective as on a Human Blitzer or Wardancer due to low MA of the former players.
TV bloat would not matter in private league IF there were no inducements available.
Since TV difference allows to get inducements then the TV difference matters even in private league.

In 7 games it's unlikely to get many random efficient skills.
If we talked of a long league then over time, by keeping on randomizing skills the distribution would assure to get efficient skills, but in 7 games it's not as likely. If you get a not efficient skill on a player now you have to fire him and in 7 games you probably are not swimming in a huge Treasury hoard, so you could be forced to keep him. Therefore it could be better either not to randomize the skill at all and save the SPPs to pick an efficient skill a bit later or just keep the Lino unskilled, as disposable fodder.
This of course requires racial context. A Dwarf Longbeard is not comparable to an Orc Lino.
A Hobgoblin is not comparable to a HE Lineman.
While I could happily randomize a skill on a cheap Hobgoblin or Goblin, I would not randomize it on a HE Lineman.


Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 17, 2021 - 14:09; edited 2 times in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 13:35 Reply with quote Back to top

@Matt: I like the new rules much less than you do. Wink

Even so, you can't expect any set of rules to work for all leagues everywhere.
CR & TV matching are only used by a small number of leagues. admittedly big ones. Those features are added by the league and if they don't work, it is up to the league to fix them.

The same with seasons. Any league is free to use whatever versions of seasons they please.
I doubt that the rules committee put most of their effort into testing 15 game seasons where each team begins the season at a different time.

I suspect that random skills are expected to even out over time. Like many other random elements of the game. If a team gets lucky and rolls a lot of valuable skills, seasons are meant to prevent the team remaining great for too long.
I doubt that they had time to test leagues where the same teams played on for sixty seasons.
We'll have to see how it goes.

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[SL]2020 Rookie Rumble - New teams ONLY - Always recruiting!
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 13:58 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:

The same with seasons. Any league is free to use whatever versions of seasons they please.


SWL, fumbbl's longest running league plays 7 game seasons. I suspect alot of low TV play here for us. In current 2016 rules, the "top sides" in the Premier Div get to the 1700-1800k TV. Be interesting to see how that plays out.

On the flipside, I am sure someone will set up a English Premier League style league with 20 teams and a home/away season just to see how it bears out!
Sir_Sully



Joined: May 08, 2019

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 14:17 Reply with quote Back to top

7 game seasons is a minimum of 1140k + treasury if you play no friendly games and lose all your games.

Realistically you’re looking at redrafting with 1200-1300k + treasury so maybe 1500k is the top end? That’s lower than the 1700-1800k above but...

The league could get around that by offering prize money to all the teams in the top division.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 14:18 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
...


In my opinion your definition of efficient is flawed... random will not necessarily give you an overall lower efficiency because you still get to use those skills and some are going to be undervalued, some over valued and some valued just right.

The thing is also OPPORTUNITY... you get to gain the benefit FASTER with random skills.

My experience are that you gain roughly the same advantage from random skills as chosen skills in general. The thing about random is just that random... in some cases you get slightly less in some cases slightly more... it is going to be very marginal difference.

I also have no sympathy for how the new rules interact with CR or TV matched games. That is completely irrelevant from the rules perspective as the rules are not written with that in mind.

While I agree you still want to get as much out of your TV as possible the fact is that random skill still give you an edge and it give you an earlier edge too.

I also don't say you should randomise skills on every player... that does not make sense. Some players benefit more from that than others.

I would only kick a player I don't want if my economy allow me to, depending on the circumstances. Sometimes hire a mercenary for the next game might be more important than replacing a lineman.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 14:21 Reply with quote Back to top

ClayInfinity wrote:
koadah wrote:

The same with seasons. Any league is free to use whatever versions of seasons they please.


SWL, fumbbl's longest running league plays 7 game seasons. I suspect alot of low TV play here for us. In current 2016 rules, the "top sides" in the Premier Div get to the 1700-1800k TV. Be interesting to see how that plays out.


But, with only 7 game seasons you could give divisions more cash. e.g. Top div getting the most, 2nd div a bit less, and so on. I think that teams shouldn't get too out of hand in 7 games. Teams could remain a fair size.

ClayInfinity wrote:

On the flipside, I am sure someone will set up a English Premier League style league with 20 teams and a home/away season just to see how it bears out!


20 teams trying to play 38 games each per season.
I can't see it working. I can't even see any sane person trying it. Wink

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[SL]2020 Rookie Rumble - New teams ONLY - Always recruiting!
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 14:43 Reply with quote Back to top

@CAB: Well, if you think random skills give you an edge it would be interesting to watch a team of yours developed as you like playing in blind MM, and see its win rate, but you don't like TVMM format so we'll never know.

So far, the teams I faced who had random rolls were terrible.
I played vs a team with a Multiple Block Chorf, others with Fend or Dauntless on Human Linemen first skill. The horror!
Also, while a single random skill could not be very inefficient, you are not considering that you are potentially wasting SPPs if you decide to take a random skill and it turns out to be a bad one.
While you could fix the random skill distribution over many games by cycling players, in a short season (the format the rules are supposed to be designed for) it's less likely you will get the efficient skills by randomizing them.
If I want to skill up a player, either he's very cheap and I can afford to randomize a skill (but if he's cheap probably having a skill on him will not make a big difference, so I could not even bother and keep him unskilled) or he's not cheap and then it's better to wait and pick it, otherwise I waste the few SPPs he has already earned and I don't have enough games left to get again SPPs on the player who replaced him.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 14:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Sir_Sully wrote:
7 game seasons is a minimum of 1140k + treasury if you play no friendly games and lose all your games.

Realistically you’re looking at redrafting with 1200-1300k + treasury so maybe 1500k is the top end? That’s lower than the 1700-1800k above but...

The league could get around that by offering prize money to all the teams in the top division.


There is a suggested cap of around 1300k for table top leagues so no team will run away too much if one team win allot. So you might use your treasury to gain match benefit during the end of a season or during the final if you already are at the cap.

So if you play around say 8 games and start around 1200-1250 TV (old players will cost more than they are worth to redraft) you are perhaps likely to end up at max around 14-1600TV in most such Leagues.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 14:48 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
@CAB: Well, if you think random skills give you an edge it would be interesting to watch a team of yours developed as you like playing in blind MM, and see its win rate, but you don't like TVMM format so we'll never know.

So far, the teams I faced who had random rolls were terrible.
I played vs a team with a Multiple Block Chorf, others with Fend or Dauntless on Human Linemen first skill. The horror!
Also, while a single random skill could not be very inefficient, you are not considering that you are potentially wasting SPPs if you decide to take a random skill and it turns out to be a bad one.
While you could fix the random skill distribution over many games by cycling players, in a short season (the format the rules are supposed to be designed for) it's less likely you will get the efficient skills by randomizing them.
If I want to skill up a player, either he's very cheap and I can afford to randomize a skill (but if he's cheap probably having a skill on him will not make a big difference, so I could not even bother and keep him unskilled) or he's not cheap and then it's better to wait and pick it, otherwise I waste the few SPPs he has already earned and I don't have enough games left to get again SPPs on the player who replaced him.


In short TVMM games are not the point as the rules are not written for them so pretty pointless to even discuss...

I would not say that neither Fend nor Dauntless is bad skill for 10k so i don't think we are even remotely on the same page on the usefulness of skills at all.

You are equally wasting SPP if you NEVER take a skill before season end and you don't rehire that lineman... same thing. You also waste SPP just having them sit there doing nothing... it is the same thing.
Come season end you can of course try you luck on random skill and then see if you want to rehire them, that is a viable option.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 15:59 Reply with quote Back to top

The SPPs must be spent wisely or not spent at all. So, if the Lineman is not a fodder one (say, an Elf Lineman or Dwarf Blocker) I save up to 6 SPPs and I pick the skill.
If he's a fodder one (Hobgoblin, Zombie, Thrall, Orc lineman) either I don't skill him up or I randomize the skill if I can replace him if the random skill is bad.

I even cycle Goblin at 6 SPPs fishing for either Sure Hands/Block.

I would use the same approach in a private league. TVMM doesn't make difference, I play considering the efficiency of my team in the next game.
I even replace MNG Blitzers with 2 skills just to have 4 Blitzers for the next game.
If with BB2016 I used to cycle players, I'm doing it way more with BB2020.
After all, there is no long-term development and there are no "special" players with stat boosts/double to keep when MNG, so it's the cycling edition.
Zlefin



Joined: Apr 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 17:49 Reply with quote Back to top

To my mind, the biggest problem with the random skills is that too many of them are just plain junk. Ideally they should be weak, but sufficiently situationally useful for most players that taking randoms is a viable choice.

There's always been issues with skill balance in bloodbowl though; with the costing of various skills simply being a poor match for their actual utility, resulting in extremely standard orders for picking skills.

The goal of random skills is fine; it's just the implementation seems lacking.

In general I endorse and agree with the OP's conclusions about 2020.
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