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Chrisdekok



Joined: Aug 09, 2021

Post   Posted: Oct 17, 2021 - 08:30 Reply with quote Back to top

I have a question about buying inducements for treasury money. I'm fairly new to fumbbl and want to avoid cheating inadvertently.
In one recent match I was accused of cheating by a very rude opponent when I bought a star player for treasury money.
I pointed out it is allowed both by the rulebook and the client but was told everyone knew it was cheating anyway.
So could someone please post a guide about what is cheating or not.
Is it always cheating to use treasury money for inducements or only when buying star players or wizards?
C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Oct 17, 2021 - 08:51 Reply with quote Back to top

You are entirely correct and did nothing wrong. The new rules make it entirely up to you how to spend your treasury.

Some leagues etc might have rules against it because theoretically it can be abused a little e.g. a successful team with lots of treasury Vs a little Snotlings team in League play. The Big team is already giving up lots iinducements.Big team buys Morg and Hakflem all of a sudden they are not available to the Snotlings leaving them short of options for their inducements.
Motskari



Joined: Dec 03, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 17, 2021 - 08:57 Reply with quote Back to top

It is definately not cheating to use money for buying inducements. In fact in your last few games there was money used to get halfling master chef and wizard against you.

Some coaches donĀ“t take well using gold for inducements against them or turn 16 fouling and some may cry about stalling. But you can do whatever pleases you within the rulebook.

edit: And within the site rules
Chrisdekok



Joined: Aug 09, 2021

Post   Posted: Oct 17, 2021 - 09:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for your answers.
Regarding the master chef and wizard inducements I think they were bought with a mix of TV difference and treasury money. It might be more accepted to use treasury money this way than to buy a star player or wizard for treasury money only.
I'm all for following the official rules. I don't like to be accused of cheating so wanted to check before I use treasury money in a game with higher or equal TV than my opponent.
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 17, 2021 - 10:36
FUMBBL Staff
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Perfectly legal and perfectly fine.

This is sometimes called 'scumming' or 'over-dogging' if you are the Bigger team and spend cash but it is absolutely your right to do so if you wish to.

as you can tell from the name 'scumming' a lot of people think it lacks honour, but then some people think to ever foul is bad manners, and to T16 foul the even worse. Ignore them and make your own choices.

To your opponent:
Gaming morality is all well and good, but you cannot expect others to share, admire or adhere to what YOU consider 'moral', they have the right to their own choices too.

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Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intelligor illis -Ovid
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone
Chrisdekok



Joined: Aug 09, 2021

Post   Posted: Oct 17, 2021 - 10:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for the explanation PurpleChest.
I get that it can feel unfair adding a lot of treasury to the match.
But aren't the people complaining about this forgetting that having cash to spend is connected to skill strategy. If you gamble a lot on random skills you might need to cycle players more and lack a treasury. For the coaches that go with non random skills it might feel unfair that their block/dodge/guard etc cost double the TV. Spending treasury might compensate for this.
MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 17, 2021 - 10:55 Reply with quote Back to top

I think what you're dealing with is just a factor of psychology. Most people will look at the team they've agreed to match with and compare to their own.

Maybe they *should* take the team's treasury into account, but they appear not to have done so.

When they then face something that is not the team they agreed to (adding a star, wizard, etc.), they feel like they've been "tricked". It feels bad being tricked. Unfortunately the closest person to take the blame is the opposing coach they feel tricked them.
RedDevilCG



Joined: Jan 09, 2010

Post   Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 02:55 Reply with quote Back to top

If your team adds treasury to buy inducements, does this increase your TV and potentially give the other free gold to spend? I think this is how the previous version worked, right?
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 03:05 Reply with quote Back to top

RedDevilCG wrote:
If your team adds treasury to buy inducements, does this increase your TV and potentially give the other free gold to spend? I think this is how the previous version worked, right?


Not anymore... if you increase your TV by using treasury, your opponent gets one roll on the Prayers to Nuffle table for every 50k.

Most of these are gimicky and not major things, so its not a deterrent to use treasury imho
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 13:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Played one game where I gave away two Prayer rolls.

He gave 3 of my Flings Loner 2+, so they stayed in the dugout, and got extra SPP for the zero cas is caused that drive.

With both of them being until end of the drive it had zero impact on the game. With smaller team size the Loner one could impact. Most of them are so small though I do not fear giving away one or two rolls to increase my change of winning the game (which I did by the way).

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Nuffle wills it.

Lyracian.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 13:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Buying inducements is not cheating, but consider that in private league, if you spend lot of gold to overdog, you could struggle to replace players, so it's less advantageous than doing it in a perpetual league.
Rules were written for private leagues (quite short, so hoarding gold is harder).
Although legal, I suspect that there is a difference between overdogging in a private league and perpetual league without Season Redraft at the moment.
If you are supposed to have less gold then it's harder to overdog, while, if you can swim in gold due to several factors (picking, playing without Redraft, easy concessions etc.) overdogging gets more likely and advantageous (getting Prayers to Nuffle doesn't make up for a Wizard or Morg hired by the opponent).
Would you use your gold to overdog with your Skaven vs Chaos Dwarfs if your next opponents, in the short scheduled private league you are participating to, are only bash teams and you will likely need gold to replace your players?
I think not.
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 14:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Lyracian wrote:
Played one game where I gave away two Prayer rolls.

He gave 3 of my Flings Loner 2+, so they stayed in the dugout, and got extra SPP for the zero cas is caused that drive.

With both of them being until end of the drive it had zero impact on the game. With smaller team size the Loner one could impact. Most of them are so small though I do not fear giving away one or two rolls to increase my change of winning the game (which I did by the way).


I don't get why some of them last one drive while others last a whole game. And if they last only one drive give me at least the chance to decide when to activate them.

Curious to see how regular you will see teams spending on inducements from their treasury as soon as redrat goes live.

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Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 20:41 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:

Gaming morality is all well and good, but you cannot expect others to share, admire or adhere to what YOU consider 'moral', they have the right to their own choices too.


He has a right to act, and the opponent has a right to gripe. End of the day these "social norms" issues get evened out because either the norm is near universal and the offending player will eventually comply out of peer pressure, or the norm isn't a norm at all and there is no pressure to comply.

I personally hate getting timed out without warning as a tactic. If I sign up for a league or tournament I get it, but for random stuff online I find it very annoying. I gripe about it when it gets done to me (unless I deserved it by routinely going over). If I find that most players slam the TO button, I will have to change my expectations. But until then, I will make the other player well aware that they fell short of my expectations when they step out of line with what I view as socially acceptable behavior. They are free to take my gripes to heart or not, that is out of my control.

The only time I would say OP's scenario violates a social norm is overdogging after you picked your opponent. If you got picked, the picker should know well and good what he is picking against. If you are the picker, I would say you should abstain from overdogging. My $.02
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 21:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Mingoose wrote:
PurpleChest wrote:

Gaming morality is all well and good, but you cannot expect others to share, admire or adhere to what YOU consider 'moral', they have the right to their own choices too.


He has a right to act, and the opponent has a right to gripe. End of the day these "social norms" issues get evened out because either the norm is near universal and the offending player will eventually comply out of peer pressure, or the norm isn't a norm at all and there is no pressure to comply.

I personally hate getting timed out without warning as a tactic. If I sign up for a league or tournament I get it, but for random stuff online I find it very annoying. I gripe about it when it gets done to me (unless I deserved it by routinely going over). If I find that most players slam the TO button, I will have to change my expectations. But until then, I will make the other player well aware that they fell short of my expectations when they step out of line with what I view as socially acceptable behavior. They are free to take my gripes to heart or not, that is out of my control.

The only time I would say OP's scenario violates a social norm is overdogging after you picked your opponent. If you got picked, the picker should know well and good what he is picking against. If you are the picker, I would say you should abstain from overdogging. My $.02


I 100% agree.

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RedDevilCG



Joined: Jan 09, 2010

Post   Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 21:37 Reply with quote Back to top

ClayInfinity wrote:
RedDevilCG wrote:
If your team adds treasury to buy inducements, does this increase your TV and potentially give the other free gold to spend? I think this is how the previous version worked, right?


Not anymore... if you increase your TV by using treasury, your opponent gets one roll on the Prayers to Nuffle table for every 50k.

Most of these are gimicky and not major things, so its not a deterrent to use treasury imho

This is actually a big change, and one I was not aware of.
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