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stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 20:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe everyone should have to have one team of every race available to play via a scheduler.
That should remove all forms of picking and show who the "best" coach is as they will have to be good with a variety if teams.
Be damned if people want to have fun. This is competetive!
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 21:05 Reply with quote Back to top

I used to activate 1 team per race, some years ago.
It would be nice, but everybody should do it.
Many coaches don't like to play some races, so I don't think it could ever happen.
Activating a team per type would already be nice, though.
1 agile, 1 bash, 1 hybrid, 1 tier 3.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 21:10 Reply with quote Back to top

MerryZ wrote:
argos_72 wrote:
JanMattys wrote:
. The question is not which one is better, the question is if they should be merged or not.

(I think).


So, redraft the teams we have created to play in BB2016 Box, migrate to the 2020 roster, but keep Box separated.

this would be my wish.


May I ask why?

I personally felt really sad that I couldnt play against my friends with my B teams as those were the teams I played most.


I would explain: because it's a little neater
If you want to play with friends with the gamefinder even today there is the Ranked (which has teams that are not mixed with the Box).
Let's say that in Box the game mechanism is different (the draw is random) and therefore it is possible that the teams are differents... But this is not really the point in fact

If we want teams in Box to be able to be used in Competitive and vice versa then why not in any League teams? At this point when we create a team we say: I can play it in any league, division, or tournament wherever I want.
It is very democratic but maybe also very chaotic.

If a friend of yours wants to play in the Box with you he will simply create teams for the Box, just as one creates teams for different leagues (which cannot be used to play in competitive games). But you do not have the certitude to play with him because the Black Box mechanism
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 21:17 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:


2) The second option, in logical order, is having 2 separate divisions, like we had before, Ranked and Box. The con is that there are not enough coaches to support 2 divisions on this site;



Why not? I'm surely missing something but since years in fumbbl we have Ranked and Box and League and all these are separated. When you have like this evening 117 coach connected usually is possible to have 2-3 match in every division
I would keep separated because is maybe more ordreded and also increase the variety of the choiche

I think in the past was introduced (by me... shame on me ... Smile ) the idea to have a Box only for Coach of High rank (Box Division A) and Box for other coaches with CR less than let's say 150 ( Box division B): in this case Christer's (correct) objection was that there were not enough coaches to guarantee enough matches in the two divisions.
Yes, the multiplication of the ranked divisions decreases the possibility of playing. But the Box vs Ranked separation is about maintaining a way of working that is existing in Fumbbl for years and no one has ever complained about it.

Of course, my point holds true if Ranked will practically die out and be replaced by Competitive.

If, on the other hand, we keep Ranked, Competitive and Box separated, then I agree with you that there might be a problem with number of matches: but why should I play Ranked with GF if there is Competitive which is the same thing?

Ranked will probably die out OR we can merge Ranked with Competitive and we solve the problem
Only one division with Game finder (COMPETITIVE + RANKED) and a separate Black Box
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 21:31 Reply with quote Back to top

stej wrote:
Maybe everyone should have to have one team of every race available to play via a scheduler.
That should remove all forms of picking and show who the "best" coach is as they will have to be good with a variety if teams.
Be damned if people want to have fun. This is competetive!


No point. He’s immune to sarcasm Smile

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MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 21:41 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:
MerryZ wrote:
argos_72 wrote:
JanMattys wrote:
. The question is not which one is better, the question is if they should be merged or not.

(I think).


So, redraft the teams we have created to play in BB2016 Box, migrate to the 2020 roster, but keep Box separated.

this would be my wish.


May I ask why?

I personally felt really sad that I couldnt play against my friends with my B teams as those were the teams I played most.


I would explain: because it's a little neater
If you want to play with friends with the gamefinder even today there is the Ranked (which has teams that are not mixed with the Box).
Let's say that in Box the game mechanism is different (the draw is random) and therefore it is possible that the teams are differents... But this is not really the point in fact

If we want teams in Box to be able to be used in Competitive and vice versa then why not in any League teams? At this point when we create a team we say: I can play it in any league, division, or tournament wherever I want.
It is very democratic but maybe also very chaotic.

If a friend of yours wants to play in the Box with you he will simply create teams for the Box, just as one creates teams for different leagues (which cannot be used to play in competitive games). But you do not have the certitude to play with him because the Black Box mechanism


I just mean it would be nice to play my friends with the teams I usually play with, first it was Ranked teams, then it was Box teams when it came and now its nice that you can play them again with Competitive teams.

I dont undertand why would it hurt anyone that you could play team in different ways ?

To say one way shows better whos "best" shouldnt we just rather play tournament style rez format on random pairing with different tiers getting different money/skills ?
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 23:32 Reply with quote Back to top

MerryZ wrote:


I just mean it would be nice to play my friends with the teams I usually play with, first it was Ranked teams, then it was Box teams when it came and now its nice that you can play them again with Competitive teams.

I dont undertand why would it hurt anyone that you could play team in different ways ?

To say one way shows better whos "best" shouldnt we just rather play tournament style rez format on random pairing with different tiers getting different money/skills ?


I just don't like to play in a random-high competitive division against a team which has been "farmed" in gamefinder division where matches can be organized in better (easier?) way (and also recovery match too). Box is - by definition "highly competitive, cut-throat division where coaches are not able to chosoe who they play against. This division is not recommended for newcomers".
I still think that Box should be keep separated for this reson. A sort of "High Level Ranked division"

If you want to play with your friends with similar team in Box as well as in Competitive (and/or Ranked) it is sufficient you create the same team in Box and in Ranked (or Competitive)

Nobody complained so far about the fact Ranked was separated by the Box.

If now it has been decided to merge Competitive, Ranked, Box in unique division I won't pull my hair out over this and of course I will continue playing fumbbl Razz . But still the real reason for doing this escapes me
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 21, 2021 - 23:55 Reply with quote Back to top

BTW
I was just thinking about a point in favour of the Box merged with the Competitive: and it is related to a recovery match for a particularly unlucky team

For example, let's imagine that we have a Box team like this ( I was never lucky with this team!! Smile Smile
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=1017349
very badly reduced, without key players for the next one.
Playing "in the dark" of the Box with this team in Box is very dangerous also because the match making algorithm after 30 games can pair you against anyone (I hope this will be corrected)

Being able to play the same team with Game Finder instead allows you to play "recovery" games without having to cycle the team or risk a game in the Box.

In effect this is one point in favour of the "merge".
IMO
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 10:50 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:
BTW
I was just thinking about a point in favour of the Box merged with the Competitive: and it is related to a recovery match for a particularly unlucky team

For example, let's imagine that we have a Box team like this ( I was never lucky with this team!! Smile Smile
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=1017349
very badly reduced, without key players for the next one.
Playing "in the dark" of the Box with this team in Box is very dangerous also because the match making algorithm after 30 games can pair you against anyone (I hope this will be corrected)

Being able to play the same team with Game Finder instead allows you to play "recovery" games without having to cycle the team or risk a game in the Box.

In effect this is one point in favour of the "merge".
IMO


True.
It is also true that with seasons you will never be into an inescapable downwards spiral. At a certain point you will hit the redraft, and you will be as good as new (albeit maybe not at 1350 tv). Killing off a team for real will be de fact impossible with seasons, I think.

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mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 12:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Personally I'd like to see BB20 handled like BB16. Two separate divisions plus a default League for friendly games. And if I'd play Secret League I probably would want to have the same mirrored for Secret League.

When I joined fumbbl it was at first really hard to compete in the box. I would just get smashed by more experienced and better coaches. Add to the defeats that I would have often to play against dwarfs or clawpomb teams - I personally didn't enjoy to spend my time against such teams at this time. So I kept playing and learning for a long time in Ranked.

After some years I tried to tip my toes again in the box. I finally grasped more than just the basics of the game so it wasn't completely hopeless anymore. Also I became tired of the cherrypicking aspect of Ranked -gud or bad, intentional or not, rightfully or not, it is always there.
And due the ongoing Black Box Trophies there was actually quite a a high amount of diversity.
(Actually more diverse matchups than in Ranked where you'd often see non bash teams avoiding bash teams etc)

I then started to really enjoy the nature of the box, playing in the dark against anyone despite your personal preferences and actually having no "recovery" game makes surviving there a much harder but also more satisfying experience. It's quite a rush.
If the team fails it is always possible to retire and start a new one.

However, there are advantages for both ways of scheduling and different approaches to play them.

For example creating not efficient but fun teams and having fun games with these kind of creations is more likely to happen in an environment where you get to agree on a game with your opponent. Or attempting to fill a grid. Or if you don't want to spend the time with certain coaches you don't like to play with. Or if you want to schedule a game with a friend. Or getting actually inducements on your Stunty team. Or testing bb20 ruleset on fumbbl Wink

I don't like the idea of mixing these two systems.
Facing one of my ranked "farmed" squads with a team that had to build up and survive in a much harsher box sounds not fair to me. It's possible to create quite nice monster teams if your Ranked Khemri always play against Pro Elves (which is imo actually a FUN matchup, so nothing against that per se!). To some degree seasons should tweak this difference between matches, but probably only at the start of their respective season.

I believe there were similar debates going on about mixed fumbbl majors. I don't really know what change in bb20 made Christer start to think about having a new division that combines both systems.

So to OP. IMO the concept of Ranked should not be killed, just the bb16 rulesystem should be replaced. So basically turn the current C into the new R.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 12:08 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
Killing off a team for real will be de fact impossible with seasons, I think.


Depending on your approach to the game, It was only really rookie protection that prevented the rebuild.

People have been calling for a reset to 1000 for ages to retain the team name. 1350 is better than that. Forcing everyone to cut to 1350 is a high price to pay for it though.

If that is the guaranteed fate then I'm not seeing the incentive to build a team at all.

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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 12:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Well I suppose you have your reasons.
I tend to think of the team as a sports franchise. Players go, the team endures.
I dont care much about high tv because I'm going to sink again sooner or later, and usually the price for that was a slog of recoveries.

Now I can enjoy the lasting aspect of a franchise and always go 100%, knowing that no matter the dice I'll always be competitiv-ish, or - at worst - that the point where I can restart anew isn't long due.
Also, 1350 is the starting tv. You will be more than likely to enjoy 1600-1700 tv games by the end of your seasons. And let's be honest: after that bb tends to fall apart anyway.

koadah wrote:
Depending on your approach to the game, It was only really rookie protection that prevented the rebuild.



Well, I suppose nothing is "unsalvageable" if you have enough patience. The point is "how many pointless games are you going to endure before feeling like the team is healthy again".

There were times with my hellfish when I had a couple linos with three skills and a superstar thrower, and I had a bad game and lost two blitzers and the ogre. A human team taking such a hit is in a very bad shape, because non-critical players suck up more than 50% of your tv.
At equal TV, the match would have been brutal. So it was more of a "let's play three-four games very defensively and hope to earn enough for a couple blitzer, while considering sacking the perfectly healthy players because at this tv they are not not worth their points".

Those were bad games because you weren't effectively "trying to win"... you were trying to save the team instead. Now, knowing that you will NOT be in bad waters for long, you will be able to go all in anyway. That's my opinion, at least.

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argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 13:31 Reply with quote Back to top

mekutata wrote:

I don't like the idea of mixing these two systems.
Facing one of my ranked "farmed" squads with a team that had to build up and survive in a much harsher box sounds not fair to me. It's possible to create quite nice monster teams if your Ranked Khemri always play against Pro Elves (which is imo actually a FUN matchup, so nothing against that per se!). To some degree seasons should tweak this difference between matches, but probably only at the start of their respective season.
.


Yes I agree with you here and this was my main argumentation with MerryZ in favour to separate the Box and the Competitive

On the other hand as I mentioned before the merge give you the possibility to make a "easy" recovery match if your best BOX team suffers a disaster and you have 3 Superstar/legend players MNG which make you difficult to have a "recovery match" in Box without the risk of too big TV Gap...

So at the end there are argumentations both for and against this solution... maybe we should launch a Poll to see what is the opinion of the majority (have Box Scheduler separated by Competitive GF or merged?). Would be interesting to see the results...
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 13:42 Reply with quote Back to top

If I had to choose between keeping Ranked and Box as 2 separate divisions or having just the Competitive division with hybrid GF+Box scheduler system I'd choose the former.
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 22, 2021 - 14:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Or make C indeed as open as possible, so a mix of both.

But offer a scheduler option for leagues and create one in pure old school Black Box spirit.

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