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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2021 - 04:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
"Fouling on Turn 16 is a sign of respect" is a Blood Bowl Forums Troll saying that many have adopted much like "kill all men's". It IS NOT the etiquette of the game.

...which leads to the whole point of there not being any "etiquette" regarding fouling in the first place. Just individual opinions.

You're free to have your own belief regarding turn 16 fouling, but trying to present it as some sort of universal understanding (when it clearly is not) is just wrong. Deal with it.

Catalyst32 wrote:
Just because you are not civilized does not make it any less the standard etiquette of the game. Barbarians rarely follow the established etiquette because they do not know it Like it or not.

In order to be civilized in the first place you need a set of WRITTEN rules first. You know, THE LAW?

Ironically enough we have your own admission that the "proper etiquette is an UNSPOKEN RULE". I guess that's handy, because you don't need to bring out any proof to back up your opinion, but in this particular case works against your whole argument of you being oh-so-civilized person and us being some soap-lacking barbarians.

Also, I find it funny you call people barbarians and talk about etiquette. At this point I am pretty sure you're the one trolling here.

Catalyst32 wrote:
So if you want to be invited to play Blood Bowl more often you should consider playing with proper etiquette INSTEAD of doing things that encourage others to NOT play YOU or to NOT play anyone AT ALL.

[...]

You would think they don't want to isolate themselves from the only friends they do have. Their online friends.

There are a plenty of people out there who undoubtedly will be OK with turn 16 fouling. People I played with had no problems with me fouling on turn 16 in our local league/tournament. Nor will you have any issues finding players in Blood Bowl 2 in general.

At the end of the day it's down to individual preference. If someone is going to be upset because you foul on turn 16, then perhaps it's better to avoid playing with such people. Who knows what other alterations to the in-game rules they also have in store?


And plenty f you would be fine with people purposefully passing gas right into your faces. But that doesn't make it etiquette.

And NO etiquette is NOT LAWS. Where you place the Silverware at the Table is not a LAW but it is etiquette.

The is no LAW about when you Foul but there is sportsmanship and camaraderie and respect for your fellows and so on. All qualities you have no care for. But hey... that's YOU.

It's fine that you don't understand it. What isn't OK is that you and others want to kill the messenger. I am doing this for YOU and your benefit (and the OP's benefit). After all, your behavior only hurts YOU primarily... and everyone else secondarily because your bad behavior runs off other Coaches.

But I suppose you cannot expect a heathen to accept the finer things in life over belching and swearing and living in filth. I suppose I should have known that not everyone can take the high road. In fact, I knew that some could not.

But to lambast me for trying to educate and elevate the state of play by suggesting that some SIMPLE DECENCY be adhered to is beyond the pale for you. Dare I say ungentlemanly.

And to say I am Trolling when you are supporting behavior that is literally TROLL behavior while Trolling me in this thread. Rolling Eyes
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2021 - 04:21 Reply with quote Back to top

garyt1 wrote:
There are threads of people complaining about t16 fouling too from over the years.


Yes.
And those threads expose that Turn 16 Fouling is against the etiquette of the game.
This is NOT NEW despite the howls of those that wish to behave like Savages.

Leave the savagery to your Players. That s what most of them are.
But WE are all Humans of the 21st or 22nd Century and you know better.
Pretending we don't know better than to behave like savages is unbecoming and totally lame and you all know it despite your protests.
Would you kiss your Mothers with those Hobnailed Botts your Pixels wear? Don't lie.
You know you would not and if you did someone would to more than give you a good talking to appealing to your sense reason OR LACK THEREOF as is what seems to be the case with some,

Just admit it. You KNOW that I am right and you would just rather be part of a global moral decline than to uphold any sort of standard that might require you to behave like a decent person.

And I am FINE with that. Do YOU. YOLO. You savages.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2021 - 04:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:
garyt1 wrote:
I think a lot of people would prefer you to score as much as possible as at least they get to receive another drive.

Certainly, but the whole idea is to deny the opponent the opportunity to score or give him as few turns as possible.

That said, I would be interested in seeing a special format, in which you are obliged to score as much as possible as fast as possible. Just because I am curious how it'd work out.



There is a League for that. Or... there was once during a gentler age.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2021 - 04:45 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
If you are playing as Undead, Necro, Nurgle a T16 foul could kill a player and give you a free Zombie or Rotter.
So, it can be a gain.
Also, if your opponent places 3 Side Steppers on LOS in order to prevent the 1TTD fouling them could be useful too for the future (in case you meet him again, especially in private league).
That way there is risk/benefit, i.e. you risk to lose a good player in order to prevent the 1TTD.
Moreover, there is a Prayer to Nuffle giving 2 SPPs for Casualties caused by fouls, so a T16 foul could be useful in that case too.



Thank you Matt for posting more Legitimate reasons to Turn 16 Foul.

I have stated SEVERAL TIMES that there ARE legitimate reasons to foul during Turn 16... and there are also MEANINGLESS REASONS to Foul on Turn 16.

But far too many what to Troll me with their preferences for Troll-like behavior as if I am being unreasonable.

I am not. I am the voice of reason here.
I would fully expect for you to Foul me if you could get 2spps for it.
Or if trying to get a Free Rotter or Zombiewas a factor in your choice to do so.
That is all within sportsmanship and gamesmanship and do you know another word related to those 2 words is that bears importance here... FRIENDSHIP.

Are these other people you play this game with that most of the world will not play not your FRIENDS? For many of you aren't they your ONLY friends?
If you say NO... maybe your behavior is the reason for that.

Why make your world a little colder?
Why make your friends' world a little colder?
The movement you don't need is to boot to the shoulder, or face, or private parts for no reason.

So let it out and let it in.
Hey Dude... begin to make this safe haven for nerds a little more of a haven of something other than making them hurt more like they are hurt in the World.

KUMBAYA.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2021 - 05:52 Reply with quote Back to top

If you feel sorry for them then only foul a lino or a loner lino.

But hey, why are they leaving you anyone better than a lino to foul?

_________________
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[SL16] Championship! Tuesday 18th January. NO TV limit! - Challenger Swiss 1700TV
Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2021 - 07:53 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
I guess it could be hard to write specific rules about that. I mean, an anti-stalling rule can reasonably work, but how would you define: "as fast as possible" with a rule?

Generally - if you can move the ball without endangering it (keeping a safe cage around it) but do not do it, then you aren't moving it "as fast as possible" towards the scoring line.

It would certainly be tricky to get the exact rule right though, because there are legitimate situations when you can't move too far forward without endangering the ball (the opponent's line is holding, for example).

Catalyst32 wrote:
And NO etiquette is NOT LAWS. Where you place the Silverware at the Table is not a LAW but it is etiquette.

Exactly my point - in order to be CIVILIZED you need a written LAW. Yet you talk about us being uncivilized (and you being civilized)? When WE adhere to the law? This is exactly why you posing as civilized is laughable. Then again, maybe you just don't realize what you're really talking about...

Catalyst32 wrote:
The is no LAW about when you Foul but there is sportsmanship and camaraderie and respect for your fellows and so on. All qualities you have no care for. But hey... that's YOU.

Like I said before - but seems you have missed it - people I play with have no qualms about fouling whatsoever due to the format we play in and because they know it's part of the game and in the spirit of Blood Bowl. You must be mistaking Blood Bowl for some other game. Or are you an Elf?

Catalyst32 wrote:
It's fine that you don't understand it.

I do understand your position. I find it ironic that you do not understand mine:

I merely object to you trying to make it sound like your view on fouling on turn 16 is an objective truth. That your unspoken rule is upheld by the majority of people who play Blood Bowl. Because it ain't.

All you can say is that some people dislike fouling on turn 16, but that's about as far as you can go without presenting any concrete evidence to back up you claim.

Catalyst32 wrote:
What isn't OK is that you and others want to kill the messenger. I am doing this for YOU and your benefit (and the OP's benefit). After all, your behavior only hurts YOU primarily... and everyone else secondarily because your bad behavior runs off other Coaches.

"God save me from my friends. I can protect myself from my enemies".

Catalyst32 wrote:
But I suppose you cannot expect a heathen to accept the finer things in life over belching and swearing and living in filth. I suppose I should have known that not everyone can take the high road. In fact, I knew that some could not.

"Video meliora proboque, deteriora sequor".
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2021 - 10:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:

And those threads expose that Turn 16 Fouling is against the etiquette of the game.
This is NOT NEW despite the howls of those that wish to behave like Savages.

My view of turn 16 - If you cannot score then Foul.


koadah wrote:
But hey, why are they leaving you anyone better than a lino to foul?

Probably when they have the three side steppers or other anti-OTT set up to stop you scoring.

_________________
Nuffle wills it.

Lyracian.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2021 - 12:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Of course, on the LOS there could be either Side Step or Stand Firm or high Strength or Foul Appearance or Shadowing or Disturbing Presence players and so on, I talked about 3 Side Steppers just as an example.
The point is that BB is often a game about risk/benefit choices, T16 foul adds an extra risk to putting good players on LOS.
Do I risk to lose these skilled players or will I keep them safe because I need them for the next league game?
iena



Joined: Sep 13, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2021 - 20:13 Reply with quote Back to top

back to another part of the topic,
The rule says:
"Do not discuss or agree on in-game events. This includes agreeing on not fouling or behaviour that implies an agreement such as clicking end turn for a significant part of the game."

but if we don't agree, i play my turn and opponent clicks end turn for a a significant part of the game, is that legal ?
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2021 - 20:35 Reply with quote Back to top

iena wrote:
back to another part of the topic,
The rule says:
"Do not discuss or agree on in-game events. This includes agreeing on not fouling or behaviour that implies an agreement such as clicking end turn for a significant part of the game."

but if we don't agree, i play my turn and opponent clicks end turn for a a significant part of the game, is that legal ?


I suspect that it is legal. But don't be crying if you both click through but they foul you on T16. Twisted Evil

_________________
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[SL16] Championship! Tuesday 18th January. NO TV limit! - Challenger Swiss 1700TV
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2021 - 22:19 Reply with quote Back to top

iena wrote:
back to another part of the topic,
The rule says:
"Do not discuss or agree on in-game events. This includes agreeing on not fouling or behaviour that implies an agreement such as clicking end turn for a significant part of the game."

but if we don't agree, i play my turn and opponent clicks end turn for a a significant part of the game, is that legal ?
I seem to remember some rule back when, but I can't find it now, that read something like: you're expected to play competitively, but you may consider your future when determining what "competitive" means. So you can stay down to save your team from further mauling in a basically-decided game, but you can't just click end turn all half because you're having a tizzy.

_________________
Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
iena



Joined: Sep 13, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2021 - 22:48 Reply with quote Back to top

I think something may be more clear adding that:

"Once a game is started or scheduled, you are committed to it and you are expected to play it through." (about Matches)

but since :

"Concessions are to be made only when there is merit for them." (about Concessions)

One should guess that if can't concede, can at least stay down and click-turn.

I am asking now about any known rule about it, but also at an "Etiquette" level.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2021 - 00:17 Reply with quote Back to top

That kind of behaviour, giving up, lying down, call you what you will, if deemed unjustified, has been reported and sanctioned before

I've heard it called soft concession, so probably it should follow the same common sense guidelines that are used to judge concessions

you can probably ask staff directly if something looks off
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2021 - 00:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:


I understand all of your points. I am not sure that you do.

You don't really make any points that refute what I have said or that have made anything concrete any more than I have according to your own standards. But then how could you.

Your Crusade against civility has been received. We all get it. You prefer to not be cool by falling in with the cool kids that like to own the Forums and break everyone else's toys for no reason.

You want to be that guy in Basketball that keeps DUNKING while the other 9 players on the court are shaking hands and standing around while the final seconds roll off the clock.
That's fine. YOU DO YOU. I've said it multiple times.

But that is not the ettiquete of the game and you know it.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2021 - 01:10 Reply with quote Back to top

This whole discussion isn't a uniquely Fumbbl thing - though the particulars of behavior, communal mores, lax written codes that function as suggestions since transgress is relatively few and there's no real authority handing out punishments.

I do think it's there's a deeper point about 'how do you want to be on a site or in a situation like this' and my answer is not satisfying because for Fumbbl, I let Nuffle guide me. I might do something shitty but in character, I might have a snit about how the game goes, I might understand the context of my opponent's engagement with the game and indulge them a bit cause I like them...I might be straight trolling! There's any number of rationales and motives and factors that shape them but...Yeah, I give sweetness to the sweet and vinegar to the sour.
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