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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2022 - 16:27 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
The new meta for Wood Elves is to either start with only one Thrower and 10 Linemen, leaving you with max DF and 3 RR. As an alternative, you could opt for a Wardancer, a Catcher, and 9 Linemen, with max DF and 2 RR. Endure your first season, get some good random lino skills, and then redraft with a full team and some good players. Like Vampires, they're really a second-season team in Second Season, but you can win with them right out the gate if you just rely on high MA and AG.


why random skills? I don't buy this.

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 17:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, in season 1, it's okay, as a random good skill and a random bad skill is slightly better than a chosen good skill for the same TV and SPP. After that it shaves 10k off of each of your skilled-up players, saving you potentially 50k or so in TV with no consequence, and in the redraft increasing your budget by half a skill.

As far as secondary skills go, it's the only way to fly. Guard for 40k is quite usable, but you're feeding your opponent free skills by floating your TV in Competitive (in a league, it's inducement balance that you're paying, but you know this). By contrast, if you randomly select secondaries, and just keep the good ones between seasons, you'll end up with probably one or more +20k Guard players, with 20k agent fees that don't add to your TV: a much more sound hire. It's even more dramatic if you consider any S skill but Guard. There's a place on your team for Mighty Blow at +20k, but at +40k you need to maximize it and get lucky for it to consistently pay for itself. The same is true of Grab, Juggernaut, and Break Tackle, plus at 20k each Stand Firm is also pretty good. So instead of one Guard at a steep price, I can pay the same SPP divided among two players, and the same TV, for two skills now, and if I hit either of the two 6/11 chances to get a worthy skill, I have a player who's more redraftable than the Guard was, and in fact may well be the same guy for 20k less.

Some caveats apply.

First, do a quick evaluation of each table before rolling, for the player in question on the team in question, and pick a skill if there's an obvious primary you desperately need (Block on a Catcher, say), or if there's a lot of bad skills for the player on the list.

Second, don't take a random on a player who already has a good random skill, develop them normally. But a) you can stack randoms on chosen primaries, and b) if you get a decent/marginal random skill, you can take a random primary and see if you got a keeper. I rolled Stand Firm on a High Elf lineman (better than on a Woodie, I'll admit), and I wasn't sure if I should keep him. So I waited until he got 4 more SPP, randomized a G skill on him, and as it turned out I got Block and a keeper player, but if I'd rolled Shadowing or something, I'd have been fine with a Journeyman.

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Last edited by JackassRampant on Jul 04, 2022 - 17:12; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 17:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Imho and from my particular perspective I wouldn't like to carry bad random skills for many games till Re-Draft.
Ok, I have a discounted cheap G skill on a Lino, but if it's a useless/bad skill such as the majority of the G skills I just wasted 3 SPPs to get something I don't like, it's not just a matter of TV, but filling a skill slot with garbage and wasting SPPs.
I prefer to save SPPs and pick a good skill if I can, or, if I really want to randomize a skill, I wait for game 15 or very close, so I can fire immediately/very soon the player, in case he rolled a bad skill (which is likely).


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 04, 2022 - 20:45; edited 1 time in total
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 17:17 Reply with quote Back to top

EDIT: the below reply was in response to Jackass, not Dakka

Naaa disagree with you.

Season 1 - Pick your core skills on your important players as they skill up. Get a 2nd Wardancer etc...

when you get to redraft/season end, you can try your doubles on your less important players at that point, then bin them for a new player if they got worthless skills.

There's no point running around with a bunch of players that have pointless skills.

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Last edited by Garion on Jul 04, 2022 - 17:18; edited 2 times in total
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 17:18 Reply with quote Back to top

@MattD: well, that skill slot doesn't matter. You're not going to redraft players with bad skills, just fire them or stick them on the line, depending on your tolerance for body count and your consideration of loner vs non-loner+bad-skill at +10k. The savings on the players with good skills, that matters, because you'll be carrying those players over into the next season. Heads you win, tails, we'll call it a draw.

This is primarily a Linemen strategy. Take chosen primaries for position players, at least on elf teams, because you don't want to have to cut/rehire them or play without them. Wardancers might be the exception, because SO MANY primaries are "good" on Wardancers and a new out-of-the-box one can do the job just fine. There are a few other positions like this (I brought up Rat Ogres a few weeks ago), but mostly I take randoms on linos and chosens on positionals.

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Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.


Last edited by JackassRampant on Jul 04, 2022 - 17:20; edited 1 time in total
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 17:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
Naaa disagree with you.

Season 1 - Pick your core skills as your important players as they skill up. Get a 2nd Wardancer etc...

when you get to redraft/season end, you can try your doubles on your less important players at that point, then bin them for a new player if they got worthless skills.

There's no point running around with a bunch of players that have pointless skills.
There really aren't a lot of pointless G skills on a Wood Elf Lineman. If you roll a pointless secondary, just fire the player. The TV savings is enormous, and every little gold piece counts. 7/3/2+/4+/8+ Block at 90k is marginal, but at 80k that guy is a stud. I mean, IMO, we're at the point where hand-picking Dirty Player (except on a player who rolled Sneaky Git) is no longer cost-efficient, if you don't get it randomly you just shouldn't have it.

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Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 17:24 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
@MattD: well, that skill slot doesn't matter. You're not going to redraft players with bad skills, just fire them or stick them on the line, depending on your tolerance for body count and your consideration of loner vs non-loner+bad-skill at +10k.

Maybe with a Season 7-game long, but, assuming 15-game, I don't want to carry for 6-7 games players with bad skills. Just before Re-Draft happens, yes, I could randomize and keep the good ones as you said, but mid-Season I don't think so. Mid-Season I will probably lack the gold to fire & replace players (thinking of expensive Elven linemen). Maybe I could randomize skills on 1 or 2, but not as a mass-building-strategy.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 17:25 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Ok, I have a discounted cheap G skill on a Lino, but if it's a useless/bad skill such as the majority of the G skills I just wasted 3 SPPs to get something I don't like

I prefer to save SPPs and pick a good skill if I can

Most teams should be winning enough they can aford to replace a linemen once every 2-3 games. Redraft means you will not be be able to afford to rehire lots of players. You might as well have two tries with 3 SPP at a good skill rather than waiting for a single player to get to 6.

MattDakka wrote:
want to randomize a skill, I wait for game 15 or very close, so I can fire immediately/very soon the player, in case he rolled a bad skill (which is likely).
Then you will never get the use out of them as you cannot afford to rehire them for the next season. FUMBBL is offering an extra 50k but our TT League redrafted to 1300 budget and people where only managing to hire about 3 players for the new season.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 17:26 Reply with quote Back to top

I talk about FUMBBL Season Re-Draft @15 games, for the record, as explained by Christer in his blog.
By the way, with Elves I don't need many skills on Linemen
They are fine with 0-1 skill (and they die/get crippled even with 2 or more skills due to ruleset and bashy environment). The positioning does the rest.
If I have to choose between a bad skill and no skill then I choose the latter.


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 04, 2022 - 17:49; edited 2 times in total
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 17:29 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
Garion wrote:
Naaa disagree with you.

Season 1 - Pick your core skills as your important players as they skill up. Get a 2nd Wardancer etc...

when you get to redraft/season end, you can try your doubles on your less important players at that point, then bin them for a new player if they got worthless skills.

There's no point running around with a bunch of players that have pointless skills.
There really aren't a lot of pointless G skills on a Wood Elf Lineman. If you roll a pointless secondary, just fire the player. The TV savings is enormous, and every little gold piece counts. 7/3/2+/4+/8+ Block at 90k is marginal, but at 80k that guy is a stud. I mean, IMO, we're at the point where hand-picking Dirty Player (except on a player who rolled Sneaky Git) is no longer cost-efficient, if you don't get it randomly you just shouldn't have it.


Yeah but I wouldn't do that in the season, why fire a player mid season and get a loner. Do it at the end of the season when you are moving into redraft, then you can keep the ones that got lucky and swap the rest for new players.

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 17:30 Reply with quote Back to top

S: Block, Dirty Player, Wrestle.
A: Dauntless, Kick #1, Tackle.
B: Fend, Frenzy, Pro.
C: Strip Ball, Sure Hands.
D: Shadowing.
F: Kick #2+.

That's 3 of the best skills, 6 more that you definitely want to keep at 10k, and 2 more that are kind of marginal, plus a bad one that's not quite so bad on the player in question, cuz MA7. If you just consistently take random 1st skills on linemen, you'll develop 3 keepers for every marginal or bad roll.

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Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 17:31 Reply with quote Back to top

+1 to Garion, I think the same. End Season fire & replace, yes; mid Season, no.

The G skills I want on Linemen are either Block, Wrestle, Kick, Dirty Player (and they can even create redundancy: 2 Kickers are bloat, Block/Wrestle on the same player is bloat too). Dirty Player, by the way, requires a bench, which Elves struggle to have.
I'm not going to blitz/block with a Tackle lino.
1/9 is too risky in my book and yes, I took Tackle as random skill and I had bad experiences.
Multiple rr, yes, I know, but I don't like to waste rrs if I can avoid it, especially if I'm playing as Elves.
Dauntless is nice but you use it either when marked by or to block a Big Guy and, without Block/Wrestle, is risky, especially if Dauntless fails and you are -2d without Block/Wrestle.
Frenzy is risky too if the player lacks Block/Wrestle, it's a recipe for turnovers.
Shadowing is utter crap on Linemen, Strip Ball is super situational and most ball carriers have Sure Hands, those who lack it are caged or protected, and Linemen are generally too slow/lack skills to reach the ball carriers.
Fend as first skill is garbage too. It starts to be useful once you have Blodge, which on Elven Linemen is rare (unless you avoid bash teams all time).
Pro is nice but before Block/Wrestle you are not going to block a lot with a Pro Lino, also, unlike Block/Wrestle, all the other G skills don't grant a degree of protection when blocked/blitzed.

edit. I share Garion's thoughts about G skills' usefulness.
3 or 4 on 12 are good as first G skills on a Lino, if we want to nitpick further, I'd say only either Block or Wrestle.
I say this AFTER actually trying a random skill approach on my EU team. It's not just theory.


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 04, 2022 - 18:17; edited 16 times in total
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 17:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
Yeah but I wouldn't do that in the season, why fire a player mid season and get a loner. Do it at the end of the season when you are moving into redraft, then you can keep the ones that got lucky and swap the rest for new players.
but then you don't have the use of the good skills in season. There are a lot more good G skills than bad ones for most players with G access (and most Stunties), including pretty much every elf lino. At 3:1, you're essentially paying 13,333 gold for a good skill, and getting a quarter of a bad skill on top of it for free. (Most bad skills are less bad if they're free.)

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Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 17:38 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
but then you don't have the use of the good skills in season. There are a lot more good G skills than bad ones for most players with G access


I don't agree. Hence our difference of opinion. most suck for a wood elf lino:

Block - yep
dauntless - nope
DP - not until mid to high tv, though I'd never take on a WE team coz I don't foul much.
fend - nope
frenzy - nope
kick - yep
pro - nope
shadowing - nope
strip ball - nope
sure hands - nope
tackle - its okay, would rather have it on both dancers and no linemen though
wrestle - yup

so I'd only really want 3/12 and you could also end up with multiple kicks, you only need 1. Just no point doing it mid season.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 17:59 Reply with quote Back to top

There should be 2 Re-Draft strategies, if I'm not wrong:

1): wait for game 15, randomize all the skills you can on Linemen (no matter how many SPPs they have), keep the ones who rolled the skills you wanted;

2): save at least 6 SPPs on Linemen and randomize the skills just on Linemen with 3 SPPs.
Then keep the Linemen with good random skills you rolled and the Linemen with 6 SPPs or more, and after game 1 pick the skills you want on the Linemen with 6 SPPs or more.

Imho and from my particular perspective it's better to have 2 Linemen with chosen Block or Wrestle than 4 Linemen with random skills which are not Block or Wrestle. I mean, it's not only about the TV cost, it's about how much you use the skills the Linemen have in a game.
I could have (I make a silly example to explain better what I mean) 4 Linemen with Fend, Sure Hands, Strip Ball, Shadowing (1 skill each) but Sure Hands, Strip Ball, Shadowing and Fend are not going to be used as much as 2 Block/Wrestle chosen skills on 2 Linemen. Block and Wrestle work even on opponent's turn.
It's not just about the TV cost/cheapness, it's about the TV you are effectively using to have an effect on the game.

By the way, if you want Block/Wrestle you can't realistically hope to get them as random skills en masse.
On average most of your Linemen won't get them, so you are forced to pick some of them, if you want to spread out Block and Wrestle, which are the best protective G skills. AV 7 needs protection.
I know because I tried to randomize the good skills and fire the players with bad skills but it didn't work, because Elven Linemen are expensive and because you can't nominate the MVP.
Even assuming you swim in gold and can replace the Linemen you can't allocate the SPPs on them in order to get the skills and spread them. This is why I think it's important not to waste the SPPs mid-Season by taking random skills.
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