44 coaches online • Server time: 00:27
Index Search Usergroups Profile
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post NBFL Season 29: Dash...goto Post SWL Season XCIIIgoto Post Black Box Trophy sea...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 18:22 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
There should be 2 Re-Draft strategies

How are you actually planning to rehire all these linemen?

I looked at what I could do with a Dark Elf team.

4x Blitzers = 400
2x Witch = 220
5x Line = 350
2x TRR & Apo = 150
TOTAL = 1120

That leaves 230 gp for extra skills on those players.
Blitzer or Witch with 2x Chosen Primary Skills + Rehire = 60k. Rehiring 3 players = 180k

That leaves 50k for possibly one linemen with a skill? Maybe you could take a second if you took a linemen rather than the second Witch?

What do you actually see as your team after the redraft. That to me is the reason to take Random skills on Linemen. They will, almost, never play more than one season.

_________________
Nuffle wills it.

Lyracian.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 18:27 Reply with quote Back to top

When the Season ends, if I can get a good skill on the Lineman with 3 SPPs and I have enough gold to keep him, I do it. If I have to keep a random bad skill on a Lino with 3 SPPs then I fire the Lino.
If the Lino has 6 SPPs or more I don't take the skill when the Season ends, I take it after game 1 of the next Season (always assuming I have enough gold to do it).

About 2 Witches: so far it looks hard to me to have 2 Witches on DE. It's too hard to skill them up (due to no MVP nomination and harder vanity passes with PA 5+) and keep them alive and without skills they are easy to injure/risky to use. They raise a lot the TV for what they do as Rookies.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 19:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, how many good linemen do you want? It only takes 2 or 3 players with Block or Wrestle, or with something usable at 10k plus Block or Wrestle at 20k, in order to have your quota. And then in season 2, you pick your skills 'cuz now you're building with a purpose.

@ Lyracian, it really depends on coach and team. For most teams you want to redraft 2-3 linemen at most. With DE, I would probably not take more than 2 Blitzers with 2 or 3 chosen primaries each, and would only start season 2 with one Witch, and I'd only consider really good Linemen at +10k-+40k (for Block/Guard or Block/MB). Note that I'd never start (EDIT: rookie) DE these days with a full squad of Blitzers or with a Witch, so it's unlikely I'd have more than 2 good blitzers to take back anyway. But with WE or HE, you may want more linemen than with DE.

It's not as marked with most elven teams as it is with, say, Humans (all-lino Humans with nothing but random G skills are totally viable in [C], even if you roll badly on skills), but Nuffle rewards the bold in this edition, when it comes to lino skills.

_________________
Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.


Last edited by JackassRampant on Jul 04, 2022 - 19:59; edited 1 time in total
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 19:44 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
If the Lino has 6 SPPs or more I don't take the skill when the Season ends, I take it after game 1 of the next Season (always assuming I have enough gold to do it.


See, for me, I see 6 SPP, and think "Guard sweepstakes: you can't win if you don't play." There's no other reasonable way to get it, and there are lots of cool compensation prizes like Mighty Blow, Grab, and Break Tackle.

I might take Block instead if I'm lacking in Block, but honestly I'd have to be pretty desperate to feel good about redrafting a (picked) Block lino, or even redrafting a 6 SPP lino with intent to buy Block. Something has gone wrong if that feels like a good value to me.

I think that's one of the dividing lines in opinions on this edition. If you gotta have control, everything has gotten a little bit harder. If you surrender to the winds, they blow you in unexpected directions and you find new treasures.

_________________
Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 04, 2022 - 20:36 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:

I think that's one of the dividing lines in opinions on this edition. If you gotta have control, everything has gotten a little bit harder. If you surrender to the winds, they blow you in unexpected directions and you find new treasures.


I think where you are disagreeing is the time of selection of random skills.

By all means go for it at the end of the season when you can fire and re hire the player, but there is no point during the season for a team like wood elves, you're better off having a cheaper lineman with no skill that pointless skills and bloat.

_________________
Image
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 04:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, I see that perspective too, and it's reasonable. I still maintain that a lot of skills are ok at 10k for one season.

_________________
Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 06:34 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree with Garion, and Woodies are a particular case of high cost players and hence you need to maximise your skills and your redraft will be harder because of said cost.

Other teams / players you may make a different strategy. Get a couple of basic hobgoblins (Sure Hands or Block) and then random the rest... if they're bad skills, then LoS fodder until end of season.

Its all horses for courses and I think this is one of the great things in 2020.

I run a league on table top (6 games season / 1350 redraft) and there is ALOT of random taking. I think its not optimal, but it sure makes great fun, and thats the important thing.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 12:31 Reply with quote Back to top

ClayInfinity wrote:
I think its not optimal, but it sure makes great fun, and thats the important thing.

Maybe it's fun if you play Norse (or another team with good core skills and with cheap Linemen, such as Chaos Dwarfs) and can afford to randomize G skills.
If you play Elves and get bad random skills it's not as fun.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 12:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Matt is incapable of understanding unoptimized fun.

_________________
Image
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 12:56 Reply with quote Back to top

I thought it was a fair point.

_________________
Image
[SL]2020 Rookie Rumble - New teams - ALWAYS recruiting!
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 13:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I think I can understand wacky fun (I played some Stunty Leeg games in the past), but if I'm playing in a Competitive division the wacky fun it's not a driving force behind my roster choices. The fun coming from winning is the driving force, in that case.
You can understand a thing but not liking it at the same time.
For me, while it can be fun losing a game with wacky fun vs a close friend, spiced up by some laughs, on the other hand wasting 1 hour playing vs somebody who optimized their roster (it happened several times in the Box) just because I wanted to take sub-par skills or play a sub-par race is not fun.
Maybe if a BB game lasted 5 minutes I could bear it, but 1 hour is too much for my patience nowadays.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 13:56 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
ClayInfinity wrote:
I think its not optimal, but it sure makes great fun, and thats the important thing.

Maybe it's fun if you play Norse (or another team with good core skills and with cheap Linemen, such as Chaos Dwarfs) and can afford to randomize G skills.
If you play Elves and get bad random skills it's not as fun.


You only quoted half my post... you left out the bit where I said its "horses for courses"...

I think defining what is fun for you (winning in C Div is fun, I agree with you) is important but your fun is not more important than your opponents fun. If he's running a Wood Elf team with 6 lineelfs with strip ball and dauntless, so be it. He's having his fun.

In my TT league, we have a lady running nobility. She's relatively new to the game and has a blitzer with Jump Up and Diving Tackle. Two randoms, but you have to be aware of it when playing her... its not "optimal" but it poses a different piece that I as an opponent have never seen before and may never again.

Anyway, she won on the weekend vs a 15 year old kid who's playing BB only for 6 mths and he's playing Undead and they had great fun. He likes to smash things with Mummies and she got her first win ever in the league.

None of this is a bad thing!
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 14:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Indeed (as an aside I think that they would have had fun anyway, no matter the random skills, there is no proof of strict correlation between getting random skills and having fun in a TT league, where there is a higher degree of social interaction), but if you wanted to play a TT league with random and wacky skills, you could have done it even without BB2020 rules. Moreover, if we want to play random skill BB, fine, but then the rosters starting with many core skills should be changed a bit, otherwise they will always be a step ahead of the teams lacking core skills.
When a ruleset has such a silly design people wanting to play in a rational way with sound-chosen skills can't do it.
Also, please notice that picking optimal skills doesn't necessarily mean boring gameplay. The gameplay is more related to what kind of team you play, rather than to the skills you take. Dwarfs will always be more boring than Elves, due to their less dynamic gameplay. If I pick on my Elves boring core skills such as Block and Wrestle I save the rrs I could use for a wacky turn 8 play, to make an example.

If I play with Elves vs a bash/hybrid team able to randomize skills due to mass core skills/cheap Linemen I'm at a TV disadvantage if I pick my skills, and I can't randomize them either unless I risk to ruin the players/bloat the team.
That's the issue.
With the old rules everybody had to pay the G skills 20 TV and, since Block and Wrestle were the most common G skills, there was more balance, in that way.
Now Zombies or Hobgoblins can afford to randomize skills due to their cheapness and cost just 50 TV. Where is the risk when you can roll and fire the player if you don't like the skill? I would do it with Elves but they are not as cheap, so I can't as lightly-hearted risk a bad random.
The random skill approach works if you do it en masse (because the good G skills are 3 or 4 on 12, 2 if we consider only Block and Wrestle) but if you do it en masse you will end to have many bad skills bloating the team, so the TV you save by getting randomly Block/Wrestle is outweighed by the TV of the other random skills on the rest of the Linemen. This means either playing with the bloat or fire the players but probably not being able to replace them and play with Loners.
You can just risk to roll 1 random skill on a Linelf after every game and keep him if it is good and fire him if it's bad, but you can't do it with many players due to their cost. You have to do it slowly, and this means that you will hardly have many Block/Wrestle players if you roll random skills. DE start with 4 Block players, but HE, EU and WE have just 2 Block players, so they really need Block and Wrestle on their Linemen.


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 05, 2022 - 18:59; edited 1 time in total
Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 15:46 Reply with quote Back to top

For Elf Union I've gone random on the linemen and the throwers with good success see below for link to my 13 game team. They are cheap enough and I'm not really trying to score TDs on them it seems to make sense.

Line elves die - particularly if they don't have a survival skill (block, dodge, wrestle, fend in my book) Throwers on Elf Union get vanity passes and dodge is key (as the cage is broken pretty easily) but full blodge is less of a priority so can afford the randoms.

If someone is at 6 SPP I'll usually take the dodge
If the are at 3 or 4 I'll usually take the random.

This team has cycled a lot of linemen over it's 13 games - just fatal injuries.

https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=1061433
I should have gone all random Pass skills on the thrower after dodge.

It's not the right approach for every team (i.e. dwarves want guard as first skill on linemen) but I think for players with a short survival time and certainly shorter leagues it makes more sense.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 20:06 Reply with quote Back to top

You know, part of the problem is that you consider C as the ultimate competitive experience. It is not.

We play in a league wit 14 games (7 games twice) and then playoffs. Rolling random skills sometimes seem to be a good idea, sometimes they are not. But no one EVER in our league considered firing a bad skill lineman (not even a zombie) a good idea. Why? Because when you play for a title instead of just stats, you know that you will need that wizard or those bribes in the finals. And throwing 40k down the sink just because you didn't roll block or wrestle on your zombie is just an awful idea.

There are a lot of assumptions in this thread but most come from different experiences and different goals. And I think it is important to keep in mind that the C environment is definitely NOT your standard league. People in leagues fight for trophies, next seasons be damned.

_________________
Image
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic