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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2022 - 03:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Iam now in the camp that I really like the new edition with some minor issues.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2022 - 11:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
the black box trophy does not permit you to continue playing the same team season to season.

I know, this is why I wrote: "quite close to a league" and "single Season private league".
With "single Season" I mean a league made by only 1 Season, then over forever.

JanMattys wrote:
Also, it is based on tv-matching.

Yes, a private league is not TV-based, but again, I didn't say that Box Trophy perfectly mirrors a private league, but it's close enough, in competitive terms. By the way, if I understood correctly, you said that BB2020 rules are better because they level more the field (so, I guess you are referring to TV gaps too), I quote your words:
JanMattys wrote:

The major flaw of permanent leagues in the past had always been that there were powerhouses and newcomers, and that the inducements / spiralling expenses systems weren't really able to create a semi-levelled field, a necessity for maintaining the fun for everyone.
BB2020 solved almost 100% of those problems with a much stronger and reworked inducements system, and the hard redraft.

So, in theory, TV pairing and TV gaps should not be a big issue. I think that TV gaps are an issue, but it's another topic.
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JanMattys wrote:

Aldo, it is not important if you steamroll theIf you end up 14/0/1 in blackbox you probably ade in the first percentile of coaches. If you go 14/0/1 in a league and you happen to lose the final, you fail.

I know, it's a big difference. But if we want to consider a coach's performance from a statistically POV a coach winning most of his games tends to be better than a coach who loses most of his games (assuming they are playing in the same league/environment).
Losing 1 game on 15 is not statistically meaningful.
This is why I think that it's more meaningful to judge coaches by considering a big sample of games, and this leads to TVMM, where coaches can really play hundreds of games and thus have a more statistically meaningful sample. A private league could be lost in final game due to bad dice (it happened to me as WE vs Chaos, now that I think of it), while TVMM rankings are not as affected by the statistical noise of the odd unlucky defeats.


@Painstate: I don't want to be boring nor to write a wall of text, but to reply: imho and from my particular perspective (but it's logical too) ALL games in Competitive division should be arranged via automatic Box scheduler only. Majors, Minors, Cup and whatever official competitition should take place amongst teams coming from the Competitive division, which played only automatically-arranged-by-the-Box-scheduler games.
Gamefinder should be used only to arrange unranked games.


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 07, 2022 - 12:28; edited 1 time in total
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2022 - 20:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, I've got my little gripes. I still think it's the best edition yet of GW's best game ever, but some of what I think were the best moves came with legit tradeoffss and opportunity costs.

I'm gonna propose to my league that you can't take the same star in two consecutive games, or more than three times over the season, or whatever. That's a major problem with the game. Why level your players if instead every match you can have Morg, Hakflem, and Riotous Rookies? If I were looking into the next edition, I'd consider a price increase on the second star player selection (so doesn't apply on two-fers like Grak and Crumbleberry, but would apply to Morg and Hakflem or whatever).

Most P skills are too weak in general. Some are fine. Leader as a random on a good/cheap Thrower is hilariously OP. Passing is stupid hard on players who aren't passers, it shouldn't be made harder for those who are, they should have a fair chance to shine. Maybe something so simple as expanding the range of +MA/AV/PA at the expense of +MA/AV on random stats?

What else would I change, besides some kind of limit on stars and a general all-around buff on the weaker P skills? I think Wildly Inaccurate should trigger on a modified roll less than one, with the ball, or one or less without, I think I brought that up somewhere. I kinda think 1450k as a rebuild limit would be fine, would lead to more careful gaming as with the halved value per match/result means that even if you go 15-0-0, you still need 150k in Treasury, and if you just break even, that's 225k: if you need to bank that much, plus 30k for potential spiraling expenses, can you really afford Bommer in every single match? Somewhere around game 12, the "scum Bommer or sock up for redraft" debate may kick in. But at 1350k, it's not an issue at all.

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Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 00:01 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
I must say that, not being bothered by the recursive tv trim, the work they did on permanent leagues was excellent. The major flaw of permanent leagues in the past had always been that there were powerhouses and newcomers, and that the inducements / spiralling expenses systems weren't really able to create a semi-levelled field, a necessity for maintaining the fun for everyone.

I would +1 on this an excellent point.

With our TT League having redrafted to 1300 gp cap, making teams around 1200-1250 TV none of them seem that far ahead of the new comers, especially now we are half way through the season.

PainState wrote:
actually by the definition of the term League, under the new rules of FUMBBL iam appealing to Christer, my league Comish to reconsider the redraft at X TV base level.
we reconsider that the base draft is at 1350 TV but a season is 20 or 25 games before hard reset with the condition that if you go over the

Where as I would petition to lower the limit to 1300 with 12 games.

JanMattys wrote:

Why? Because when the playoffs come, you will realize that sure, your opponents have a zombie with shadowing, which is 10k useless tv, and you don't because you fired him. But on the other hand they also have 40k gold more than you do.

Gold is less random this edition but Expensive Mistakes are still going to eat it up if you just keep it in a pot. I have noticed some teams just do not seem to care and keep hundreds around but I would be looking at options of spending once I pass 200k.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 00:06 Reply with quote Back to top

You can wait for 300k or more in the Treasury to spend some, not 200k. I do that. Whenever I have 300k or more in the Treasury I buy something in order to drop at 290k-295k. That way if I roll a 1 the loss is not big.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 01:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Just because I said that bb2020 works for leagues, maybe it is useful / interesting if I share our current league rules:

8 players
14 games regular season (7+7 round trip championship)
Followed by 2 games: KO playoffs (semifinals 1st-4th and 2nd-3rd + Finals for the title and for 3rd place) and two random friendlies for 5th to 8th place.
So the complete season is 16 games for each team.
Two points for wins, one point for ties (we dont like three-points wins because we don't want to penalize ties too much).

Prizes: 30k for winner, 10k for runner up, 10k for Highest DeltaTd and 10k for Highest DeltaCas (we prefer Deltas to MostTd/MostCas because it makes more teams eligible).

Redraft rule: 1 Million + 10k per victory + 5 k per tie + prizes + treasury at the end of the season. Hard cap to 1350 TV anyway. Can buy old players for their TV + 20k per season they played.

New Team: if one wants to start anew, he gets to build a 1200 TV team from scratch, with up to six skills (no doubles, no stat increases, one skill per player). So yes, they can start with a 1200 tv lizard with a 1080 roster and six blocks if they want. This helps the newcomers deal with the 1350 veterans, along with the fact that a) they get inducements (potentially a wizard), and b) not all redrafted teams hit the cap of 1350 after the first season, especially if the record wasn't stellar.

So far it has been extremely successful. Five seasons, three winners with new teams and two winners with redrafted teams. Fun for everybody and unbalance reduced to a reasonable minimum.

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Last edited by JanMattys on Jul 07, 2022 - 12:33; edited 2 times in total
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 04:51 Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="JanMattys"]we dont like three-points wins because we don't want to penalize ties too much).[\quote]

In KPL we despise the tie so much it is outlawed.

This is a direct quote from tomb king Settra…”ties are an abomination to Blood Bowl, a foreign concept from the Empire and their love of boring Blood Bowl, there must be a victory at the end of a match, if not, then why even play?”

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 05:00 Reply with quote Back to top

here here! Settra for emperor! down with ties!
The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 07:06 Reply with quote Back to top

KPL new rule proposal: If a match were to end in a draw, each coach will roll 1d20 to determine the winner. Highest roll wins. Each coach MUST sacrifice one player before the roll, and may add one tenth of that players TV to the dice roll. (A 50k player sacrificed adds +5 to the d20 roll)

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 10:34 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
Just because I said that bb2020 works for leagues, maybe it is useful / interesting if I share our current league rules:

...


That is nice. Did you mention agent's fees?

It doesn't sound that much different to just having a 1350 TV cap.

Personally, I wouldn't give the worst teams less money.
I wouldn't have a problem with starting new teams at 1250+.

If it is what people want, everyone could start at 1500/1600 etc. Mr. Green

Edit: I've heard some people say that some of the inducements might be a bit too strong.

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Last edited by koadah on Jul 07, 2022 - 12:21; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 12:18 Reply with quote Back to top

As an aside, there is a huge difference between starting Lizardmen with 6 Block and starting without Block at all.
Without MVP nomination Lizardmen struggle way more to develop Saurus Blockers, also, starting with Block helps to get CAS and SPPs.
I understand the reason, i.e. helping a coach new to the league to get faster to the same competitive ground as the other coaches in the league, but it boosts Lizardmen a lot. I know it was an example, just saying. It would be interesting to know the detailed race composition of the league, by the way. How many teams are top tier 1? How many are tier 2 and 3? Which races won the league so far?
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 12:26 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
That is nice. Did you mention agent's fees?


That's the 20k per season to add to each old player's cost.

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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 12:31 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
As an aside, there is a huge difference between starting Lizardmen with 6 Block and starting without Block at all.
Without MVP nomination Lizardmen struggle way more to develop Saurus Blockers, also, starting with Block helps to get CAS and SPPs.
I understand the reason, i.e. helping a coach new to the league to get faster to the same competitive ground as the other coaches in the league, but it boosts Lizardmen a lot. I know it was an example, just saying. It would be interesting to know the detailed race composition of the league, by the way. How many teams are top tier 1? How many are tier 2 and 3? Which races won the league so far?


First season we had 6 players:
Vampires, Amazons, Chaos Dwarfs, Humans, Snotlings and Necro (Humans won, Necro runnerups)

Second season we had 6 players:
Underworld, Dark Elves, Chaos Dwarfs, Khemri, Old World Alliance, and Lizardmen (Underworld won, Dark Elves runnerups)

Third season we had 6 players:
Slann, Dark Elf, Chaos Dwarfs, High Elves, Nurgle and Lizardmen (Lizardmen won, High Elves runnerups)

Fourth season we had 8 players:
Imperial Nobility, Chaos, Wood Elves, Orcs, Necro, Undead, Norse and Skaven (Imperial Nobility won, Skaven runnerups)

Fifth season we had 8 players:
Skaven, Chaos, Khorne, Khemri, Chaos Dwarfs, Undead, High Elves and Necro (Final is Undead-Necro, to be played)

Just for add some interesting data, these are the TVs of the Finals:

1st Final: 1360 Humans vs 1580 Necros
2nd Final: 1430 Underworld vs 1590 Dark Elves
3rd Final: 1670 Lizardmen vs 1640 High Elves
4th Final: 1600 Imperial Nobility vs 1400 Skaven
5th Final: 1635 Undead vs 1545 Necro

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Last edited by JanMattys on Jul 07, 2022 - 12:40; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 12:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks! So, if I'm not wrong, many people change the race they play from Season to Season, they don't keep on playing the same race for many Seasons.
Is that correct?
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 12:44 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Thanks! So, if I'm not wrong, many people change the race they play from Season to Season, they don't keep on playing the same race for many Seasons.
Is that correct?


Some do, some dont's. But yea, we like to try new stuff all the time. Especially once you win, you feel the itch to try again with something different Smile
But no, no one keeps the team for many seasons. The most we had, was a Chaos Dwarf team for three seasons straight.

For example: I took Humans, then High Elves, then Khemri, then Undead, then I got pissed that I didn't reach playoffs, and kept the undead (also due to having a random-rolled Block mummy, and awesome wights). Next season, no matter if I win or not, I'll probably coach Goblins.

One player kept Chaos Dwarfs 4 seasons out of five.
Lizardmen were kept in season two and three and won the title in their second year.
Dark Elves were kept in season two and three and managed to get to the Final the fist year, but not the second.
Chaos has been kept in season 4 and 5, but didn't manage to get to the playoffs in either season.
Undead have been kept in season 4 and 5. Came fifth due to tiebreakers in the fourth season, and they are currently fighting for the title in season five.

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