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CL



Joined: Oct 20, 2023

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2023 - 03:57 Reply with quote Back to top

https://fumbbl.com/ffblive.jnlp?replay=1673363

Turn 1
Joseph Spiketail has claws and got a bothdown on the Rotspawn, it says he rolled an 8 and was saved?

Whats going on? am I stupid or is it the game.
Owiebowee



Joined: Dec 24, 2019

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2023 - 05:47 Reply with quote Back to top

When the Armour roll is made for the Rotspawn, the player with Claws is Prone (since the result was a Both Down) and so cannot use the skill.

Same idea as the FAQ regarding this question and Mighty Blow.
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2023 - 05:48 Reply with quote Back to top

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/P9GJXUTdGyGDeZkk.pdf

Guessing its because of the same logic as the mighty blow sentence on page 3 of the FAQ where since he is prone (assuming Joseph didnt have block?) the skill doesnt activate. I'm having trouble watching the replay but that's my guess
CL



Joined: Oct 20, 2023

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2023 - 06:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok that sucks. I thought Claws was better than block for a minute, but no its not.
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2023 - 06:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Nope. Block is still by far the best skill in the game to spam.
I'd argue leader and kick (except on hybrid teams) are better but you only need one of those, block is always great.
Its one of the more perplexing design choices to have a skill you literally always want on a player.
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2023 - 06:24 Reply with quote Back to top

For what its worth, Claw isn't as good as it used to be (last edition) since it doesn't stack with mighty blow. And against all of the teams except dwarves, chorfs, blorcs, orcs and lizardmen it's not any better than mighty blow for breaking armor.
Nelphine did an analysis of what skills lead to removals by number of blocks per cas. From what I recall, on average, it went Block (by alot), Mighty blow, frenzy, brawler, tackle, pro, Claw. But I may be misremembering. Hopefully he sees this thread and can correct me.
Its obviously better for claw vs AV10+ but I dont think it was better than even frenzy in that context.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2023 - 07:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Guard is still the besh bashing skill by far, though Smile
If you want to remove players, nothing beats "do more blocks".

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C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2023 - 11:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Carthage wrote:
Nope. Block is still by far the best skill in the game to spam.
I'd argue leader and kick (except on hybrid teams) are better but you only need one of those, block is always great.
Its one of the more perplexing design choices to have a skill you literally always want on a player.

I'm never sure about Leader on teams with cheap Rerolls. Seems like the opportunity cost to save 30k just isn't worth it
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2023 - 12:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Random Leader is great for the value. Saving 40k is worth it, especially at low TV, where 2 skills can make a difference.
NerdBird



Joined: Apr 08, 2014

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2023 - 14:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Owiebowee wrote:
When the Armour roll is made for the Rotspawn, the player with Claws is Prone (since the result was a Both Down) and so cannot use the skill.

Same idea as the FAQ regarding this question and Mighty Blow.


That's honestly really dumb. I know I have been doing that wrong on tabletop - I would think if making a block you get to use your skills no matter what. I don't agree that you shouldn't get to use it when a player knocks themselves down blocking you but at least that's an argument I can agree can be made...

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Owiebowee



Joined: Dec 24, 2019

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2023 - 14:39 Reply with quote Back to top

NerdBird wrote:
Owiebowee wrote:
When the Armour roll is made for the Rotspawn, the player with Claws is Prone (since the result was a Both Down) and so cannot use the skill.

Same idea as the FAQ regarding this question and Mighty Blow.


That's honestly really dumb. I know I have been doing that wrong on tabletop - I would think if making a block you get to use your skills no matter what. I don't agree that you shouldn't get to use it when a player knocks themselves down blocking you but at least that's an argument I can agree can be made...


I agree, it is further encouraging you to take an already ubiquitous skill (Block).

But the argument could be made that Claws/MB working on Both Down encourages your opponent to take Block even more since this would only hurt players without that skill.

My tabletop house rule to add some additional counters to Block is that we make wrestle give two choices: place both players prone as usual or knock down both players, meaning a turnover is caused for your opponent even if they had the Block skill. This makes Wrestle a direct counter to Block in the same way Tackle counters Dodge rather than just a niche sacking skill.
NerdBird



Joined: Apr 08, 2014

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2023 - 15:00 Reply with quote Back to top

I had a friend that played bloodbowl for all of 3 games. He is a pretty hard-core gamer and picked Amazon's. This was back in LRB days. We played a few games to learn the rules and in our first game of the season he was paired up with Dwarfs. Upon learning his whole team of dodging women were completely countered by tackle and reading the rules multiple times he gave his team to a kid at the shop and never played bloodbowl again. He still claims what a horrible game it is due to that completely negligent game design.

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Owiebowee



Joined: Dec 24, 2019

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2023 - 15:47 Reply with quote Back to top

NerdBird wrote:
I had a friend that played bloodbowl for all of 3 games. He is a pretty hard-core gamer and picked Amazon's. This was back in LRB days. We played a few games to learn the rules and in our first game of the season he was paired up with Dwarfs. Upon learning his whole team of dodging women were completely countered by tackle and reading the rules multiple times he gave his team to a kid at the shop and never played bloodbowl again. He still claims what a horrible game it is due to that completely negligent game design.


I believe that is the design of Amazons and Dwarfs he was frustrated with and not Tackle itself. In the same way that no teams start with Guard, no teams should start with Tackle in my opinion. I think slowly building an arsenal of counter skills over a team's development is great and for every team other than Dwarfs you will just have a couple of players with this skill.
CL



Joined: Oct 20, 2023

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2023 - 17:34 Reply with quote Back to top

NerdBird wrote:
I had a friend that played bloodbowl for all of 3 games. He is a pretty hard-core gamer and picked Amazon's. This was back in LRB days. We played a few games to learn the rules and in our first game of the season he was paired up with Dwarfs. Upon learning his whole team of dodging women were completely countered by tackle and reading the rules multiple times he gave his team to a kid at the shop and never played bloodbowl again. He still claims what a horrible game it is due to that completely negligent game design.


I think I'm feeling that way too. Mainly due to the fact if you roll a block die without block you run a 2 out of 6 chance of turnover. 1 in 3. With block its 1 in 6, double. Its just such a big jump. Maybe they could water it down by using 8 sided block dice, idk. But, I feel its too strong. Theres all kinds of cool thing you can do, fumblerooskies and diving tackles, but since block is just so dang strong, I don't have a chance to experiment with other things.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2023 - 20:02 Reply with quote Back to top

NerdBird wrote:
Owiebowee wrote:
When the Armour roll is made for the Rotspawn, the player with Claws is Prone (since the result was a Both Down) and so cannot use the skill.

Same idea as the FAQ regarding this question and Mighty Blow.


That's honestly really dumb. I know I have been doing that wrong on tabletop - I would think if making a block you get to use your skills no matter what. I don't agree that you shouldn't get to use it when a player knocks themselves down blocking you but at least that's an argument I can agree can be made...


If your opponent/league members agree to it that way then go ahead, do it.

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