JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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 Posted:
Jun 26, 2012 - 14:55 |
 
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Well looking at the fluff Plaguebearers are no way AV7, neither are Bloodletters. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jun 26, 2012 - 15:00 |
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the pricing you have got for them all is fine.
but you must give the plague bearers av8, even that alone would probably be enough to stop them being so unbearable at low TV.
The team was getting better as the season went on no doubt. But they are very reliant on getting doubles. Without claw (which i luckily got very quickly on a bloodletter) they are very poor.
The problem comes in future leagues though, when you lose players they are very very hard to skill up and with av7 plague bearers (your most defensive players) you will lose players thick and fast in the second season if there was to be one. |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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Jun 27, 2012 - 14:18 |
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Hi all,
first a few comments about the team:
I wanted the team to reflect the fragile truce between the chaos gods. That's why rerolls are 70K, and that's why the 4 daemons have to be equally powerful/expensive/useful.
Secondly, the team's schtick is the potential 8 ST4 players - and this is counterbalanced by the team being fragile. If it wasn't fragile, it could easily become an unmanageable behemoth.
As an added bonus, I think it gives the coach some interesting decisions to make that everything is 70K, and that you want everything on the pitch.. But can't have it.
One problem for the team is that with 70K players, the best they can put on the pitch is 770K. Most teams are roughly around 850K-950K. And the daemons can't really compensate with inducements, because they need a deep bench, and that bench is expensive.
Which is all good, because with all that ST, it is important that the team is not in high tier1 (or above).
I considered upping everything to 80K (with improvements to go with that) - but I think it would make them even harder to get off the ground (which is bad) while at the same time making them more powerful should they manage to develop/survive (which is also bad!). So, I'm staying with the 70K template.
I do think they could do with minor buffs.
But I'm worried about going too far.
Garion think's they're tier 3, but for the record his team went 50% over 11 games played. Sure, their points were made mostly against Tier 2-3 teams and weak starter teams, but at least I think it shows that they aren't bottom of the barrel.
So, what to do:
@Jimmy - I've had to ignore the daemonic save. My excuse is that all BB pitches are consecrated to Nuffle. So, looking at just the pure stats, Bloodletters, Daemonettes and Horrors are all Toughness 3 and 1 Wound in WFB/40K. That works with AV7.
AV8 on the Plaguebearer makes sense. I'll cut Thick Skull which was meant to represent the same thing.
5418 Foul Appearance.
Arguably, (compare to a Saurus), the switch to AV8 is so good that they'd have to come down to MA4 to be just 70K. It also fits the WFB statline with average Move but very low Initiative.
Other than that I don't want to buff the ST4 players, as those very easily become the no-brainer choice of the team.
I'm wondering though if the Horrors should be MA8. Compare to a human catcher.
And the Daemonette is very hard to price right. But they're paying through the nose for AG4, when they are in fact AG0 for a lot of purposes. MA7 might be right.
So, is this far enough? Or too far?
0-4 70K Plaguebearer 4418 Foul Appearance; G(M)
0-4 70K Bloodletters 6417 Horns; GS(M)
0-4 70K Daemonettes 7347 Claw, No Hands; GA(M)
0-4 70K Pink Horrors 8237 X-arms, Regenerate; GPM
Cheers
Martin |
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blader4411
Joined: Oct 18, 2009
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Jun 27, 2012 - 14:24 |
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Why does the Plaguebearer not have regenerate while the Horror does? |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Jun 27, 2012 - 14:27 |
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There is just no need to make the team so unrelentingly bad.
I can see the point of not wanting to make them overpowered but there has to be a hook to the team other than "I like Daemons in WFB"
Making the Daemons 80K and RRs 60k is a much better idea I think as they can then be made OK and have a point to actually using them. |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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| Posted:
Jun 27, 2012 - 14:35 |
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the plaguebearer looks expensive for what it gives. Compared to a BoB it loses -ag-av for foul appearence + 10k. It just doesn't seem a good trade to me.
Give them regen at least. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jun 27, 2012 - 14:37 |
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yeah jimmy has a point.
If you go strictly off the fluff your team should look something like this -
Plaguebearer - 3 4 1 9 Thick Skull, Regenerate, Foul Appearance
Bloodletter - 5 4 2 8 Regenerate, Wild Animal, Horns
Daemoneettes - 7 3 4 7 Claw, No hands (though some do have hands but i get why you have done this)
Horrors - 6 3 3 8 - Decay (because they are so unstable), Regenerate (in place of two blue horrors), Extra Arms, Big Hands
I think this is a far tighter fit to the fluff and I'm still not sure how good it would be really.
You could also give them all animosity as each of the gods hates another.
I cant remember off the top of my head but i think it is - Khorne and Tzeentch hate eachother, and Slaanesh and nurgle hate each other. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Jun 27, 2012 - 15:01 |
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Two obvious huge flaws with the team are
1: Mutation access. How many Bloodletters or Plaguebearers have you seen with tentacles or 2 heads? None because Daemons can not and do not mutate. Horrors are a special case of course but they still don't mutate like the skill up mechanic works.
2: Clearly not all Deamons are equal on the Bloodbowl pitch.
Trying to make Horrors the same cost as Bloodletters is a bit dumb when a Bloodletter should obviously be much much more useful than a Horror. |
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cowhead
Joined: Oct 22, 2006
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| Posted:
Jun 27, 2012 - 15:04 |
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Personally i'd make another positional to fill the lineman position e.g. Chaos Fury
Then I would reduce the amount of other positionals you could take but beef them up a bit.
Something like this
0-16 40k Chaos Fury 6237 Dodge, Stunty
0-2 100k Bloodletters 5418 Frenzy, Horns, Mighty Blow, Wild Animal
0-2 90k Daemonettes 7337 Claw, Hypnotic Gaze
0-2 90k Horrors 8237 Extra Ams, Regeneration, Sprint
0-2 90k Plaguebearers 4418 Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearence
Rerolls 60k
Not really sure how accurate my pricing is  |
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Niebling
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 27, 2012 - 17:06 |
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I miss the version where the daemonetts had gaze  |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jun 27, 2012 - 17:09 |
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| zakatan wrote: | the plaguebearer looks expensive for what it gives. Compared to a BoB it loses -ag-av for foul appearence + 10k. It just doesn't seem a good trade to me.
Give them regen at least. |
BOBs are most likely underpriced though. |
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stej
Joined: Jan 05, 2009
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Jun 27, 2012 - 17:33 |
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+ST Zombie, 70k
+ST Beastman, 90k
+ST Human Catcher with Hypno Gaze, no hands, Claw and no catch, 80k
+ST Goblin, 70k
RR 60k
Simples! |
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spubbbba
Joined: Jul 31, 2006
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Jun 27, 2012 - 19:54 |
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| Garion wrote: | yeah jimmy has a point.
If you go strictly off the fluff your team should look something like this -
Plaguebearer - 3 4 1 9 Thick Skull, Regenerate, Foul Appearance
Bloodletter - 5 4 2 8 Regenerate, Wild Animal, Horns
Daemoneettes - 7 3 4 7 Claw, No hands (though some do have hands but i get why you have done this)
Horrors - 6 3 3 8 - Decay (because they are so unstable), Regenerate (in place of two blue horrors), Extra Arms, Big Hands
I think this is a far tighter fit to the fluff and I'm still not sure how good it would be really.
You could also give them all animosity as each of the gods hates another.
I cant remember off the top of my head but i think it is - Khorne and Tzeentch hate eachother, and Slaanesh and nurgle hate each other. |
I wouldn't put too much emphasis on fluff for the team as GW has changed it a lot over the time. Also those 4 daemons are comparable to the elite of most other armies.
In fantasy for instance bloodletters have ST5 and higher WS, MA and Initiative than humans so would be very nasty. They lost regen a while ago and don't even seem to have much frenzy anymore.
It is khorne and slaanesh that hate each other as well as tzeentch and nurgle, but again is something which doesn't really factor in anymore. I would suggest animosity on all players aside from the daemonette though.
If you give them characterful skills that is probably the best way to represent them.
I'd have bloodletters being able to dish out the damage but not take it so ST4 and AV7 make sense as do horns and frenzy.
Plaguebearers should definitely be able to take a hit so regen and foul appearance are a must along with at least AV8, not sure if they need ST4.
Daemonettes are agile and deadly so I like claws with no hands, AG4 and AV7 make sense for them too and I'd like them to have disturbing presence.
Horrors are tricky as their main schtick is magic so making them the ball carriers does make sense, maybe thrall stats with extra arms? |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Jun 27, 2012 - 21:22 |
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All right I like the 70k everywhere thing. Good start.
0-4 70K Plaguebearer 4418 Foul Appearance; G(M)
0-4 70K Bloodletters 6417 Horns; GS(M)
0-4 70K Daemonettes 7347 Claw, No Hands; GA(M)
0-4 70K Pink Horrors 8237 X-arms, Regenerate; GPM
is the roster im going to base my suggestions on.
First: Bob vs Plague: -1agi, -1 av, gain FA, but most important - no access to strength skills! Even if bob is underpriced, the plaguebearer is NOT overpriced with this stat line. I'd probably throw thick skull on too and leave at 70k. If it wasn't for 8 S4, I'd say give them regen instead of thick skull.
Second: Bloodletter vs Saurus: -1 ma (huge for an agi 1 person - since they can be tied up so easily they NEED to be able to move when they are free), -2 AV huge huge HUGE, they get horns, nice, they get M access on doubles. I'd make them av 8 and still leave them at 70k, and still call them somewhat overpriced.. but 8 str 4 makes that reasonable.
Third: Daemonettes vs who knows? actually lets call them a saurus with break tackle. -1 S, +1 ma, claw (good, but no mb/horns/str 4 to back it up), -2 av, lose str access and gain agi access. I'd say make them MA 8 and give them another skill (fend/leap/jump up come to mind, but nothing really stands out to me) and still leave them 70k. Alternatively compare to werewolves, -1 ma, +1 agi (but no hands!! werwolves are amazing scoring machines so this is huge), no frenzy, mutations on doubles (competes with mighty blow so not vey good), -1 av, no regen. Again, increase MA to 8, give a skill, and still leave at 70k. Might need to give a second skill even.
Fourth: Horrors vs human catcher: mutations on singles (nice!), extra arms but lose dodge, gain regen, lose catch. I would say drop MA to 7, let the daemonettes be the fast ones. Give them dodge out of the box (they're still S2! And every other S2 starts with dodge). Then leave at 70k. Slightly underpriced probably, but regen is tricky that way.
Final:
4/4/1/8 Thick Skull, Foul Appearance G
5/4/1/8 Horns GS
8/3/4/7 Claw, Side Step, Fend, No Hands GA
7/2/3/7 Dodge, Extra Arms, Regenerate GPM |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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Jun 27, 2012 - 22:52 |
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Hi all,
thanks again for taking an interest in this discussion.
I should state up front that I won't be abandoning the basic premise of the team. It has been through a lot of playtesting in various editions over the years, and I really do not want to start from scratch. Coincidentally, Cowhead, I did brieflt try a version with 8 daemons and 6337 cultists back in the day, and it was surprisingly powerful! Also, 8 ST4 players are naturally hard to balance, so I do want to remain cautious - after all, with a house rule team perception is almost as important as actual power...
And with that in mind - JimmyFantastic:
| Quote: | | There is just no need to make the team so unrelentingly bad. I can see the point of not wanting to make them overpowered but there has to be a hook to the team other than "I like Daemons in WFB" |
I think 8 ST4 players is a pretty obvious hook.
Also, please note that despite the team getting buffed, you went from "may be broken" to "unrelentingly bad" in 1 page. Perhaps both verdicts are overly harsh.
JimmyFantastic said:
| Quote: | Two obvious huge flaws with the team are
1: Mutation access. How many Bloodletters or Plaguebearers have you seen with tentacles or 2 heads? None because Daemons can not and do not mutate. Horrors are a special case of course but they still don't mutate like the skill up mechanic works.
2: Clearly not all Deamons are equal on the Bloodbowl pitch.
Trying to make Horrors the same cost as Bloodletters is a bit dumb when a Bloodletter should obviously be much much more useful than a Horror. |
Re1: I'm not completely up to speed on WFB/40K, but looking at the current minis range, one Plaguebearer has a huge claw-sword, another has a 3rd arm/tentacle - and the Daemonette legend "The Mask" has an extra arm and horns. So I suppose it happens. As for horrors, it may not be perfect, but it's the only mechanic that exists in the game.
Re2: I think it makes perfect sense. In warhammer, where the purpose is Kill All Mens, they aren't equal. But BB has very different objectives, and a weak agile player can easily be as useful as a clumsy but deadly one.
This is probably a good time to point out, that I'm very actively trying to avoid 'overdescribing' the players. It's a common team building mistake to want to get everything in there, but it will turn the roster into a mess.
In the same vein, the Daemon stats for WFB seems to have shaven off quite a bit of what we old diehards associate with the daemons.
Plaguebearers no longer regenerate or have a special disturbing aura. They Just have S4, T4, and poisoned attacks/weapons - which they can't use in BB.
Bloodletters no longer have frenzy (or regenerate). They do have "Killing Blow" which could be attributed to their daemonic weapons, unusable in BB. They are strong, but not tough.
Daemonettes are fast and deadly with Claws/Armor piercing - but no hypnotic gaze or disturbing ability.
Pink Horrors no longer split into blue horrors! Thy have multiple arms, but their hands aren't particularly big and their bodies aren't small at all. They have flaming attacks and use magic - but on-pitch magic isn't allowed in BB. I can't come up with a reasonable way to represent flaming attacks. Their fighting stats are pretty standard.
With all that in mind, I'll stick with AV7 bloodletters. Not only does it fit their stats and style well enough, but 8 ST4 AV8 players would be terrible.
Regenerate on the Horrors will have to go, as it represented their outdated splitting ability. (Which suits me fine, it was a pretty ugly proxy anyway).
That means they need another ability. Dirty Player could be the flaming attacks. Or I could just ignore the flaming attacks and go with something useful.
Alternatively, they could go ST3. Their stats certainly support it. But - Spubbbba & Garion - that would push them into 'tied for strongest 11', and I'm extremely uncomfortable with going there. Lots of teams have a hard time facing their many strong players, and a smattering of guard can make them even harder to manage. I think an ST2 ball carrier is a very prudent downside to a team this strong.
Finally, I'll post the math just so it's out in the open.
Based on the old design formula, which may be outdated, but is still the formula that the existing teams were based on:
*Plaguebearer 4418 = 50K. +1 skill (20K). Admittedly Foul Appearance is only half a skill, but on the other hand the formula gives a 20K discount for AG3=>2, and a further 20K discount for AG2=>1, and while Saurii get this too, I do believe the discount is a bit high.
*Bloodletter 6417 = 50K. +1 skill (20K). Sure, beastmen only pay 10K for horns, but it is pretty neat on an ST4 player.
*Daemonette 7347 = 70K. +claw (??K). -No Hands (??K)
*Pink Horror
8237 = 30K. 7237 = 20K. 6337 = 30K.
Sorry for the wall of text.
I'm thinking out loud and explaining myself at the same time.
Oh, as for animosity, I think it mucks up the roster, and really isn't needed when Horrors are the only truly viable ball carriers anyway.
Cheers
Martin |
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