FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Astrolonim

Joined: Sep 08, 2016

Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 09:31

I haven't read the whole thread, only the first few pages and Christer's blogs posts. I think the league (R and B) changes as proposed in Christer's first blog post are a great change, and most of the other changes as well. The two things that worry me are the potential removal of teams (for me, even if there is no Teams of Legend pdf, rosters should be kept, although maybe Slann do have to go) and the cap of 1.3M-ish for redrafting. While I think seasons are necessary, as many others have said, that seems a little bit low (it would essentially remove the ability of teams to get above 1850 or so, right? I certainly still enjoy games at that tv, and for 200-300 more beyond it). Personally, I get most of my enjoyment from building teams, and if high-tv play ends up mostly removed, it would kill my enjoyment. Obviously, most people don't hold that opinion. I trust Christer, and honestly any of the systems he's mentioned seem fine. I just think a little bit higher (if I had to pick, probably 1600, but 1450 would be a huge improvement for me too) on the tv cap would make the game more enjoyable, and teams would still not be able to reach the kind of craziness they can right now, or anything approaching it.

Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 16:18

Of course coach skill is still the biggest factor (after dice). But after that, skill and roster balance is the next factor and they've done nothing to try to balance that, assuming equal dice and coach skill. I don't think they could get it perfect in one shot, but this edition does not seem to have tried. They've balanced many other things, but not skill/roster balance. And while things like kick off events were very noticeable, they're still certainly a smaller factor than skill/roster.

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 16:32

To be honest I don't think Dark Elves for example are as superior as you make them out to be, at least that is not my experience playing both with and against them. Blood Bowl have always been balanced around board game leagues between a few coaches so probably something like 8-10 games a season. If you then have to restart teams every season or redraft at a certain limit then teams are quite close in power level and that is where the game actually are quite balanced.

Teams such as Dark Elves tend to become very powerful when developed past a certain threshold and some other teams will as well for different reasons.

When teams get to develop completely unchecked you are playing outside what the game have always been designed for in terms of team cost, skills and progression paths.

Uber

Joined: Mar 22, 2004

Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 20:01

One change I really don't like is going back to random MVPs which will bring huge variance in team building. Leveling positionals will become much more the product of chance and team progress will slow down significantly. Remember that you'll be able to bank the SPPs, I expect most linemen will bank or roll a random and get fired if they whiff.

There will be two tiers of teams. The first will be the guys who embrace the minmax. They will bank a lot and level only key guys with the best skills. The teams will stay as low as they can and have a significant advantage based on initial roster strength and hyper efficient use of TV. They will cycle heavily on players who don't get good random skills.

Second tier teams will level whenever they can and keep more linemen type players with situational skills. Their TV will grow, but their power level won't be close to the tier one teams. They won't cycle players as much and take a more casual approach to team building. The higher the go up in value, the more difficult it will become for them to win.

The game will become mostly a "NAF light" format. Every team will look the same except for a few outliers and bad teams. The most developped teams will have a ball carrier with 3-4 skills, a hitter with 3-4 skills, 3-4 guys with 1 skill and then rookies. But those will take as much time to build as a the high TV teams we currently have.

The new progression would make more sense if they hadn't at the same time introduced random skills and brought back random MVPs. To me this is a net negative over the previous system. The classic trade of one problem for another.

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stej

Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 20:20

I'd like to see redraft costs be based on SPP totals, so your super players gradually get more and more expensive, but your rookies dont. Feels quite thematic too.

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 20:36

Uber wrote:

One change I really don't like is going back to random MVPs which will bring huge variance in team building. Leveling positionals will become much more the product of chance and team progress will slow down significantly. Remember that you'll be able to bank the SPPs, I expect most linemen will bank or roll a random and get fired if they whiff.

There will be two tiers of teams. The first will be the guys who embrace the minmax. They will bank a lot and level only key guys with the best skills. The teams will stay as low as they can and have a significant advantage based on initial roster strength and hyper efficient use of TV. They will cycle heavily on players who don't get good random skills.

Second tier teams will level whenever they can and keep more linemen type players with situational skills. Their TV will grow, but their power level won't be close to the tier one teams. They won't cycle players as much and take a more casual approach to team building. The higher the go up in value, the more difficult it will become for them to win.

The game will become mostly a "NAF light" format. Every team will look the same except for a few outliers and bad teams. The most developped teams will have a ball carrier with 3-4 skills, a hitter with 3-4 skills, 3-4 guys with 1 skill and then rookies. But those will take as much time to build as a the high TV teams we currently have.

The new progression would make more sense if they hadn't at the same time introduced random skills and brought back random MVPs. To me this is a net negative over the previous system. The classic trade of one problem for another.

How well does that min/max work if a league season is 8-10 games for example?!?

You will not get many skills at all and when you get them the season is almost over.

Even situational skills is mostly useful if you play to their strength when you have them. A few random skills on a team will not really bloat the team value that much either.

Two situational skill versus one good skill can probably often be equal in total value, especially if you consider that those situational skill come in use sooner rather than later.

At the end of the season is when you weed out the more weird skill combinations when redrafting for the next season.

Lyracian

Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 20:41

I was thinking of another way of building the team.

First season is all about getting a redraft budget of 1300k (or 1350k as Christer suggested).

Season Two we start with all new players. Using the DElf as example
4 Blitzers, 2 Witch, 6 Line, 3 Re-Roll, Apo = 1240 TV; can split the last 60 between DF (assuming you have to buy it again) and Treasury.

Season Three
We have now had a full season to skill up the team. Dodge on the Blitzer with one or two getting Tackle. Wrestle on a Witch. Other Witch tames Random skills and either ends up a better pick than Wrestle Witch.

Base Team
4 Blitzers, 2 Witch, 5 Line, 2 Re-Roll = 1070 TV
1 Blitzers with dodge/tackle +60 x 1 = +60
3 Blitzers with dodge +40 x 3 = +120
1 Witch 3 Random (include Block/Wrestle) +50 x 1 = +50
We are at our 1300 limit. With 1350 we can get a couple of more skills but that is not much.

Last edited by Lyracian on %b %03, %2020 - %20:%Nov; edited 1 time in total

Grim04

Joined: Oct 30, 2005

Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 20:42

Lose 2x Dodge and get 1 4 Str Blitzer!

Uber

Joined: Mar 22, 2004

Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 21:36

@CAB

It's all about abusing from tier 1 teams as much as you can. Some teams are just better than others at 1M TV. You stick there as much as you can, then you get strip ball on your wardancer for example. You're always playing teams in the range that benefit you or get inducements that will favor you more than some guy who's gone with situational picks. You only carry what's worth carrying, the ideal being a good random skill.

Potentially you bank all season, roll the random lottery at the very end, only keep what's worth it, rinse and repeat. The degree to which people will aggressively bank remains to be seen. If matching is done by game rather than TV, some people would get wizard every game by staying intentionally low vs. those who bloat.

You can skill early if you're lucky and get the MVPs on the right guys too. With the extra money, players will be cycled a lot too.

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CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 21:42

Grim04 wrote:

Lose 2x Dodge and get 1 4 Str Blitzer!

Strength increase will cost you 80k though...

There also is a case for mostly keeping linemen that happen to get good random skills as most blitzers will skill up relatively fast anyway during a season. There also are a pretty good chance that your blitzers have more than one skill as not skill them up during the season might not be a good idea.

Your linemen players on the other hand gain skills less frequently and could definitely be valuable with a one or two random skills that are decent picks, most General skills work on linemans at 10k a piece.

CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 21:45

Uber wrote:

@CAB

It's all about abusing from tier 1 teams as much as you can. Some teams are just better than others at 1M TV. You stick there as much as you can, then you get strip ball on your wardancer for example. You're always playing teams in the range that benefit you or get inducements that will favor you more than some guy who's gone with situational picks. You only carry what's worth carrying, the ideal being a good random skill.

Potentially you bank all season, roll the random lottery at the very end, only keep what's worth it, rinse and repeat. The degree to which people will aggressively bank remains to be seen. If matching is done by game rather than TV, some people would get wizard every game by staying intentionally low vs. those who bloat.

You can skill early if you're lucky and get the MVPs on the right guys too. With the extra money, players will be cycled a lot too.

I only play leagues with scheduled games so I can go up against pretty strong teams if I don't skill up properly, inducements only carry you so far.

I rarely care about wizard that much to be honest as it will often not plug the gap of a better team, in my experience anyway.

Also the new way that Sneaky Git work means that fouling will be more prevalent and you might need a deeper bench too if you wan to be competitive. A human catcher with Sneaky Git and Dirty PLayer is the new killer now... almost all teams can get that type of player for little investment. Wink

There also are additional rules where scoring 3 goals or more get you more league points which might force more dicey plays to some extent. Keeping a team lean I think will be more problematic if you want to actually win a league now and that is nice.

Uber

Joined: Mar 22, 2004

Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 22:11

@CAB

OK, well League is a vastly different environment than the Competitive division will be. The calculations won't be the same. Still, you might see the same logic applied on a game per game basis. You buy your skills when you need them basically or you stick to what works.

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Malmir

Joined: May 20, 2008

Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 22:14

I expect many races to be underused as they canâ€™t develop enough at low rating to be competitive. I expect a few races that can to be over represented and to all look the same as once the novelty wears off most people wonâ€™t take randoms. I hope I am wrong but it all sounds very dull

Arktoris

Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 22:30

all teams reset to 1350tv frequently.

wow, who knew smallkosp would one day be the norm of bloodbowl?

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CAB

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Nov 04, 2020 - 00:35

Uber wrote:

@CAB

OK, well League is a vastly different environment than the Competitive division will be. The calculations won't be the same. Still, you might see the same logic applied on a game per game basis. You buy your skills when you need them basically or you stick to what works.

To be honest the board game from GW are balanced around modestly large leagues with manageable division sizes. If you play any other format you will need different house rules or simply accept the game are not as well balanced.

We also have teams in tiers so tier one teams are generally accepted to be more competitive than tier two teams. In leagues you can use this as handicap for more experienced versus less experienced coaches or give a TV bonus to lower tier teams. These are house rules you can adhere to... or simply accept that you play a team that will struggle more and live with it.

There is nothing wrong with playing the game in a different format as long as one realise it is not created for that purpose and that it need to be tweaked in order to work as designed.