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RedDevilCG



Joined: Jan 09, 2010

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2021 - 00:16 Reply with quote Back to top

I started a new Necromantic Horror team in the Competitive league and I was wondering what others think about skill progression under the new skillup system and future redraft rules. Wraiths have the No Hands skill, so there are only 4 potential ball carriers now. Here's what I'm thinking

1) Ghouls: Generic ball carrier. Block, sidestep, sure hands, gravy. These used to be sweepers or sackers if you took them at all, but now I think they need to be your primary ball carriers and protected, therefore they get the standard ball carrier skills. They cannot survive getting stuck in with their low AV, and Werewolfs make much better bashers.

2) Flesh Golems: Block, MB/Guard, gravy.

3) Wraiths: I think these only need one skill, Gaurd, and then they're basically great. If they skill up again, then Diving Tackle, Tackle or MB could be good options.

4) Zombies: Random General skill. Fire and replace if you get something horrible.

This just leaves the Werewolfs, and I'm conflicted on how to build them. In the past, I would go Blodge + SS for a ball carrier, or switch to a killer build with MB + Tackle if they rolled a double. Now MB doesn't stack with claw, so their build paths seem pretty bland as generic blitzers.

What skill paths would any of you do for all the positional players? Is there a case for any new skills on players? Wrestle on one Werewolf?
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2021 - 01:20 Reply with quote Back to top

I have played a bit with Necromantic in BB2020, in a regular boardgame league environment though.

For Ghols and Werewolves I went for both one with block and one with Wrestle. For the Ghoul I first picked Sure Hands on one Ghoul and then Block as the primary ball carrier, then Wrestle on the other Ghoul.

Wrestle is a really great skill for defence and to make holes and sacking the ball.

The reason I pick Sure Hands as first pick is because RR are too expensive to be used for picking up the ball in a Necromantic team. Once the ball handler have Block and Sure Hands I would try and save up for a Characteristic roll as that Ghoul should gain allot of SPP.

For Flesh Golems I generally always go Guard first as that have very good synergy with stand firm and I generally can get enough Block and Wrestle with the Ghouls, Warewolves and the Wraiths anyway quite early. As the Golems will skill up so slowly I rather have as many Guards as possible to support the team ond offer better positional focus on the pitch.

So, Guard on Golems and Wraiths... they rarely get anymore than that in a tabletop league unless you are really lucky or play in a league with allot of games which I don't.

Zombies are random unless I manage to go from 0 or 2 SPP to 6 SPP in one game. Depending on my economy I just keep them around even if they get a bad skill and simply don't rehire them at the end of the season. If they get a really good skill as a random I might even consider hire them back for a new season, that obviously depend on the economy and the rest of the team.

Golems are actually the one player I would likely roll a random skill as second as they really struggle to get enough SPP acting more as support anchors and roadblocks. I would not rehire them unless they get a good strength skill from the random roll. I probably concentrate rehire my other positional players as the Golem are pretty good as is in my opinion.

Obviously my reasoning are based on short league seasons of about eight to ten games tops.
RedDevilCG



Joined: Jan 09, 2010

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2021 - 03:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Wrestle Ghouls make great sackers but I cringe at the thought of needing one to carry the ball if the main ball carrier gets knocked off the pitch. One Wrestle Wolf might be my path.

In BB 2016, I did a team with guard first on FGs and I liked it a lot, but block is so useful. I found I was too scared to throw blocks with them due to the expensive rerolls.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2021 - 09:51 Reply with quote Back to top

First of all I must say that despite appearances the Necro team with the new wraiths is not quite as bad as I expected (I had launched a pool some time ago where there was a slight majority against of this new team see here https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=31692&highlight=necromantic ).

But clearly it's all about the fact that wraiths don't have hands and so you have to equip yourself with enough ball carriers. Either you are a very experienced coach and can afford to play with a ghoul and a wolf and only a couple of rerolls, but the risk of having both out is high and then carrying the ball with the zombie beh.... is not beautiful! Or I'd say that the starting roster should definitely include two ghouls and a wolf which should be protected properly (so Variant 3 definitively here is the best IMO https://fumbbl.com/help:BB20NecromanticSetUp)

Block for the wolf is absolutely the first skill to take. Personally, I'll wait a bit to give him MB because having a CLAWMB can be decisive. Then when the team progresses you buy the second wolf.

Ghouls: if you are very afraid of failed picks (I hate losing the ball in the first turn) I usually give him Sure Hands as first skill. But maybe Block would be better (and have three rerolls one for the pick) in order to protect him more (I don't know if it happens to you but every time my Ghoul go down by a block or because a failed GFI he goes directly to the infirmary).

Wraiths usually take Guard as their first skill and then either MB or Tackle. It's very important to have at least one tackle because Amazons, UD, Skaven and even Halfling are still very popular in BB2020

On the zombies the only skill that can make sense for me is Dirty Player (and have a 13 players team). Block is already a bit bloat. Some people say "Kick" but I usually deploy zombies in LoS or on the side on kick off so it would be a waste to keep a zombie in the middle.

Flash Golems are veeeery slow to improve. If I am able to give them Block I am happy . Guard is luxury!

Speaking about 3rd skill for Ghouls and Wolf is little bit utopistic in BB2020 because redraft but anyway. Side Step is nice skill for wolf and/or Ghoul too but think you still have a "sidestepper" to place close to the ball keeper (the wraith!) so maybe having one Ghoul with Tackle can help too


Finally a personal comment: Even though the new Wraiths are fearsome, I find that Necros are still more difficult to handle in the past. It also depends on the fact that in BB2020 most people play Tier 1 teams. Black Orcs are very unfortunate for Necros because of Grab's Spam which annihilates the Wraith side step. If you play against Orcs the matchup is also unfavorable. Same for Lizardmen, Norse and low-medium TV Amazons.
All in all in absolute terms Wraiths are fun but in relative terms I think Necromantic Horror is much harder to handle nowadays. At least for me.

But maybe because I still did not adapt my game style to the new ruleset....
ciao!
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2021 - 11:53 Reply with quote Back to top

When we get Seasons implemented, then Temporary Retirement seems ideally suited to Ghouls to fix their injuries.
Particularly on Shambling Undead where you can have 0-4 of them so you're not really limited by roster size

If you have 2 wolves and 1 ghoul (plus one recovering from injury), would that be enough ball carriers?
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2021 - 13:20 Reply with quote Back to top

but stats reduction are not fixed. A Ghoul suffering -1 ST, AV, MA cannot be used anymore.
Niggly are not so important for the dynamic of the game and you are right. So I will keep the Ghoul niggly because I hope in the redraft.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2021 - 18:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Not sure Temp Retire will see much use. Maybe in Games 13-15 of the 15 game season. You still have to pay to rehire them and then see if they heal. Not sure I would put the money in with a 50% chance of having to just fire them again.

As for skills it might be interesting to build a Juggs Wolf to play with Frenzy.

Overall thought I think Seasons means we see a single Wolf hog SPP and then get a Stat in Season n+1. The team gets build around that star.

One Ghoul gets Wrestle, strip/tackle if they get that far, to be a Sacker.

As for the debate between Block/Sure Hands first which ever you take will be wrong in some games and not others. It comes down to how lucky you think you will be?

_________________
Nuffle wills it.

Lyracian.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2021 - 19:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Ghoul 1 - Sure Hands, Block, Side Step
Ghoul 2 - Block, Side Step, Diving Tackle

Wraith 1 - Guard, Mighty Blow, Tackle
Wraith 2 - Guard, Tackle, Mighty Blow

Golem 1 - Block, Guard, Mighty Blow
Golem 2 - Guard, Block, Mighty Blow

Wolf 1 - Block, Side Step, Tackle
Wolf 2 - Block, Side Step, Tackle

Zombies - MEAT SHIELDS


The positional options of having 6 players with Side Step and 2 with Stand Firm plus some Meat Shields give you a team that could be hard to push through.

Your Wolves (despite their speed) should never be Ball Carriers due to the Frenzy.
Instead of Mighty Blow you give them Tackle. That makes them useful against Dorfs and Elfs AND against most dedicated Ball Carriers that usually end up with Dodge 1 way or another.

Your Zombies and Golems and Wights COUGH Wraiths and Ghouls are really unchanged unless you used your Wight as a Carrier.
And WHY would you use a Ghoul as anything but a Carrier or back to the Defense Sweeper. They are too fragile to survive the game in any other role.
Watching them die is OK in the long term but in the short term of a single game, it is counter-productive.
Although I could see using a Ghoul as Sneaky Git if that floats your boat. It might be a good idea. Maybe not.
RedDevilCG



Joined: Jan 09, 2010

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2021 - 22:06 Reply with quote Back to top

@argos_72, I pretty much agree with everything you said. The biggest weakness of this team is reduced ball carrier options. The new Wraiths *might* be good enough to make up for this, but this team definitely needs more strategic (cautious) play to protect your ball carriers. Zombies or Flesh Golems are not a backup ball carrier plan.

The new Necro team is screaming "foul me". You need the two ghouls and a wolf to start as all it takes is 3 lucky blocks/fouls or unlucky dodges and then you have zero ball carriers. The old Necro team had up to 6 potential ball carriers, but no-hands on Wraiths prevents this with the new team. If you can get sure hands quick, then I'd even look at getting the second wolf before the third reroll so you have 2 backup ball carriers, otherwise the third reroll first is probably better overall.

I think Side Step is really important on Wolfs because they will be crowd surfing the opponents players whenever there is a positional error. You need the sidestep to avoid the retaliatory surf on the opponents turn. Side Step also helps to prevent getting fouled. If Side Step is the third skill then the decision of Tackle/MB as a 4th skill is probably not happening often before redrafting. I think a redrafting guide for teams will need to be figured out just as much as skill builds...

One Wolf as a generalist and the other as hitter is the compromise:

Wolf 1: Block, Dodge, Side Step.
Wolf 2: Block, Tackle, Side Step.

It's too bad that none of the new skills seem to be practical for Necromantic Horror teams.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2021 - 23:36 Reply with quote Back to top

I think wraiths need MB as the fist skill. St 3, No way to score with them, can't get that lucky completion on turn 8 to bump up to the next level; these guys will level slower than any other positional.
RedDevilCG



Joined: Jan 09, 2010

Post   Posted: Oct 06, 2021 - 02:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Mingoose wrote:
I think wraiths need MB as the fist skill. St 3, No way to score with them, can't get that lucky completion on turn 8 to bump up to the next level; these guys will level slower than any other positional.

That's a good point, but do they really need anything more than Guard? They are almost perfect with just Guard and no additional skills.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Oct 06, 2021 - 03:33 Reply with quote Back to top

RedDevilCG wrote:
Mingoose wrote:
I think wraiths need MB as the fist skill. St 3, No way to score with them, can't get that lucky completion on turn 8 to bump up to the next level; these guys will level slower than any other positional.

That's a good point, but do they really need anything more than Guard? They are almost perfect with just Guard and no additional skills.


In a league you are 100% correct. In a perpetual environment, even with redraft, I think I go MB. Of all the pieces on a Necro team I think I earmark the wraiths for a redraft.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 06, 2021 - 07:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
Ghoul 1 - Sure Hands, Block, Side Step
Ghoul 2 - Block, Side Step, Diving Tackle

Wraith 1 - Guard, Mighty Blow, Tackle
Wraith 2 - Guard, Tackle, Mighty Blow

Golem 1 - Block, Guard, Mighty Blow
Golem 2 - Guard, Block, Mighty Blow

Wolf 1 - Block, Side Step, Tackle
Wolf 2 - Block, Side Step, Tackle

Zombies - MEAT SHIELDS



1350 redraft after 15 games meaning around 1300TV to start game 1 of season 2. Each of those skills is going to cost you 40TV. Only the ghouls and wolf will reliably skill in that time frame. You will probably only have one skill on the other players before you have to choose who to redraft.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 16, 2021 - 04:15 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not suggesting you get all of these skills in 1 season.
But you make a good point.

Flesh Golems maybe not really needing the skills and they definitely won't get many skills before you would have to drop them. Maybe they should just be getting Guard and being fine with that as the most you can get out of them.

The rest probably all need to be shaved down into HUSKS of players from the GLORY DAYS of Blood Bowl because GW has never understood their own game.
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