| Poll |
| Season Redraft: |
| It is a Must. Should strictly follows BB2020 User Manual rules (15 games sharp etc..,) |
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26% |
[ 34 ] |
| It is a Must. But not strictly following BB2020 Manual (f.i : after more than 15 games and/or different redraft rules... ) |
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23% |
[ 30 ] |
| It is nice to have and can be implemented in several way. I am flexible. |
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23% |
[ 31 ] |
| I don't like it, but I will accept to be done with one of the previous option |
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5% |
[ 7 ] |
| I don't like at all and I think should NEVER be implemented in FUMBBL! |
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12% |
[ 16 ] |
| Pie! |
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9% |
[ 12 ] |
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| Total Votes : 130 |
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moph
Joined: Sep 16, 2020
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 Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 00:55 |
 
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| PainState wrote: | Can we all accept the idea that the entire premise, rule or idea behind redraft is to make it easier to run a 8-10 coach table top league ...
Redraft is a rule for the pub comish to keep his paltry 8 coach league up and running with out massive turnover because of high TV teams vs Low Tv teams.
can we at least agree to the main reason the idea of a redraft even started? |
I can completely agree with that.
But I think that most people here would find a better solution for this problem within an afternoon;).
I just hope that in the next edition someone sensible will abolish the saving of SPP for statupgrades and secondary skills. That's the real core of the problem the TT league Comishs have, isn't it?
Statupgrades and secondarys should be something random and rare, not every player has the possibility to reach such levels in his career.
I don't play competitively. Teambuilding is a part of roleplaying for me. If I were to play competitively, I would only consider resurrection mode or teambuilding with the same conditions, i.e. matchmaking according to the number of games played. |
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Zlefin
Joined: Apr 14, 2005
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 01:52 |
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At present (when I don't play much) my primary interest is that when redraft is implemented, you have an option to redraft early if you want. In particular because sometimes I play a softer team (eg skaven) and have a terrible opening game early where you lose multiple position players, and I'd rather just redraft/restart the team immediately than play with a weak team.
Aside from that I don't think there's much to tweak options-wise, as the real problems are inherent to the ruleset and the usual fact that it's simply not designed for fumbbl. Fumbbl simply has different needs.
Stats are too focused now, too easy to pile +MA on your ball carrier and otherwise skip over stats; I miss some of the random variation in stat freaks, also there's a lot of issues with the balance on +stats, some being under-costed, some being over-costed (especially factoring in the SPP cost required to get them). |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 02:00 |
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| moph wrote: |
I just hope that in the next edition someone sensible will abolish the saving of SPP for statupgrades and secondary skills. That's the real core of the problem the TT league Comishs have, isn't it? |
I don't know. They could just ignore it and use the old system as CIBBL have done.
Then they could just ignore seasons too and carry on doing what they've been doing all along.
| moph wrote: |
Statupgrades and secondarys should be something random and rare, not every player has the possibility to reach such levels in his career. |
Ah, but that is not fair. Someone might get lucky and roll a superfreak. Then we'd have to waste the whole season trying to kill him. 
I do recall a fellow whose name I'm not allowed to utter, suggest that there should be no permanent injuries either.
Then we'd all know where we stood. It'd be fairer.
Better for the more competitive demographic they're aiming at. Make it more like a "proper" game.
| moph wrote: |
I don't play competitively. Teambuilding is a part of roleplaying for me. If I were to play competitively, I would only consider resurrection mode or teambuilding with the same conditions, i.e. matchmaking according to the number of games played. |
Pfft. Teambuilding? Roleplaying? There's no money in that. We can't have people getting attached to their pieces. They'll start calling them "players" and giving them names and back stories etc.
If you're not careful you'll have people running the same battered old orc and human teams that they got in the starter box for 20 years.
Keep TV low so they'll have no qualms about using a new team every season.
Make sure that they'll have plenty of gold for stars. |
_________________
[SL] + Official Stunty teams. Progression KO. Old & new teams welcome. 29th May! |
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moph
Joined: Sep 16, 2020
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 02:35 |
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 | koadah wrote: |
Ah, but that is not fair. Someone might get lucky and roll a superfreak. Then we'd have to waste the whole season trying to kill him. |
Thats why Apo's should be removed from the game.  And there should be ageing rules.
| koadah wrote: |
I do recall a fellow whose name I'm not allowed to utter, suggest that there should be no permanent injuries either. |
Perm Injuries should lower the player cost, so that I can keep my injured darlings in the team.
| koadah wrote: |
Better for the more competitive demographic they're aiming at. Make it more like a "proper" game. |
Do You think they are aiming at competitive players? I would asume the casual market is bigger?
| koadah wrote: |
Pfft. Teambuilding? Roleplaying? There's no money in that. |
The better the game for a broad audience the more minis you can sell. Creating bad rules with the goal to sell minis will not work in the long run. |
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ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 08:13 |
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| moph wrote: |
Statupgrades and secondarys should be something random and rare, not every player has the possibility to reach such levels in his career. |
I am very much in favour of redraft and am very excited about it coming to fumbbl C div. I am also the commish of one of these aforementioned "pub leagues" where we're about to enter our 3rd season and for the first time teams have had to pay 40k agents fees for their best players.
I think its been an awesome process and it really keeps the competition tight and "competitive". To me the biggest variable is coach ability where we have some very good NAF players and some people who have never played BB before and keeping the TV spread tight is very important.
However, the reason why I quoted moph above though, is that in a TT pub league (ours is approx 8 games per season) many people spend their time saving for a primary skill (block!) or they sucumb to random skills and as such I dont see any stat boosts. We have one High Elf thrower with a +PA as the only stat in the league and we have had 20 teams for season 1 and 28 for season 2. SPP hoarding for stat ups just doesnt exist.
Having said that, on fumbbl, generally coaches are "good". You dont take the trouble to learn how to install java and play fumbbl unless you're already a fan of the game. So, I would agree that fumbbl is a class above the "pub league".
And with fumbbl games taking one hour or so and not a 3 hour real life exercise plus travel, 15 games can be knocked out quite quickly here and with a longer season coupled with that in built "skilled coach" factor, stat ups become much more common.
This brings into the question of the TV value and I believe that they're undercosted. When BB2020 came out we all scoffed at the +80k for ST but in reality, its probably about right and +MA should be of near equal value.
So should fumbbl houserule this? As GW will not given they are making the game for the 6 game pub league seasons? |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 10:00 |
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| RDaneel wrote: |
- Agent's fees proportional to the level of the player you want to keep: paying 20k for a Dwarf Blocker with ONE guard and the same 20k for a Legend Gutter Block, Two Heads, Big Hand, Side Step, Horns, Tackle (205k) seems strange to me: do we want to say that each additional skill costs, say, 5k more in agent fees?
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So seems the min.max problem with redraft is a problem just for me or is there s-o else who share my view and have some proposal to reduce little bit the OP of Tiers1-min.maxed teams (if this is a problem for you on fummbbl or not)?
thx! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 11:28 |
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Consider that if you use a short Season Re-Draft (or just increase the Agent Fee cost) tier 2 teams such as Chaos, Necro, Nurgle, Vampires, Khorne get even less appealing to play.
If there is a little player development (not necessarily to build minmaxed evil stat freaks, but just to have the core skills tier 2 teams lack, such as Block, Guard, Tackle spread on some players), then people bother playing tier 2 teams (ok, there can be extra reasons, such as the Trophy, but not everybody plays it).
If player development is not possible then people lean towards the strong starting tier 1 teams, already well-equipped by their default skills since game 1.
In my opinion the problem lies in the differences amongst the rosters and in how the BB2020 handle the level ups. With CRP's level up system you could bother playing a tier 2 team, hoping for stat boosts on a ball carrier to have that extra advantage which helped to be on an even ground vs tier 1 teams. With Season Re-Draft this is harder. Yes, you can automatically pick a stat, but the player's cost increases over time, thus making hard to keep him. While a tier 1 team can be still fine without a stat freak, a team such as Black Orcs really needs an AG 4 Goblin with +MA, because the average Movement is low.
With a hard TV cap you could have Vampire teams with 2-3 developed Vampires being able to do something in a game.
Since we must use the Re-Draft, a 15-game Season should be a quite acceptable compromise between allowing a bit of development and trimming a bit the stat freaks and I think we should test it before bothering Christer about it.
I can be wrong, I'm curious to test the 15-game Season for the science's sake. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %19, %2023 - %12:%May; edited 2 times in total |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 11:39 |
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The point is if the proposal to add a supplemenrary agent's fee for superstar/legend players with more than 3 skills can make sense to mitigate the impact for coach who don't play min.max Tiers1 teams...
Do not underestimate the number of coach playing the Trophy, is quite popular and I would say that 50% of matches in the Competitive BlackBox today are scheduled between BBT teams (my speculation I did not a statistics I can try).
But I presume BBT is a big part of the cake of BlackBox matches.
I quite agree with PurpleChest when he says that dwarfs need a lot of guards to work well and naturally if they have to pay many 20k agent's fees for every blocker many will be drop. I find not really reasonable that a legend player with 6 skills 200K will cost only 20k of Agent's fee like a simple Blodge Blitzer ...
but maybe I am the only one who see this incoherency in the redraft rules? |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 11:46 |
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I think that the +20k Agent Fee could work. I'm not sure, I need to test the Season Re-Draft first.
About the Dwarfs: for sure they need many Guards to work (it's nothing new).
In order to save some Re-Draft gold you could do this: keep all the Dwarf Blockers with 6 SPPs or more (or at least some of them); don't take the skill at Season's end (thus saving 10k-20k); pay them their cost +20k Agent Fee; after Season 2 game 1 take on them Guard.
The Dwarf Blockers you can't keep could randomize a Strength skill, if they rolled a good S skill you could take them and fire one of the Dwarfs with 6 SPPs.
Again, there will be no player with 6 skills after Season 1, so his Agent Fee will be at least +40k, because he will require at least a couple of Seasons to level up.
And that just to keep him, you could need to keep other players as well (not freaks, just players with 1-2 core skills). |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 11:53 |
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To me, the fixed 20k agent's fee for all players regardless of their experience casts some doubt. I think the minmax is a game changer and therefore needs to be regulated a bit .
by the way, the min max also creates problems at the Trophy. Those who play Trophy use teams with a TV that are unlikely to exceed in the 15 games at 1250-1300
If during the Trophy you are paired with a minmaxed team with the same TV, this is very critical.
I completely agree with what Garion wrote below for example
| Garion26 wrote: |
If I have a choice I will not accept games against an opponent with many more games then I have had, even (especially) if our TV is similar. As others have pointed out having a big TV difference is somewhat less of a problem in BB 2020 then it was in the past due to better inducements.
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TV as a team pairing mechanism in the Box is not a measure of fairness because if we take an Orc team with TV 1240 and 13 games played and have them play against a UW team with TV 1250 and 3 minmaxed they will very often win the UW even with 5 snots in the infirmary 3 dead goblins.
In my opinion whoever develops the redraft will also have to consider these points too
You are probably right that redraft was designed for the tabletop game maybe with 10 players....
So the redraft for fumbbl will have to be, IMHO, a little different (?) ... |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 11:56 |
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The Re-Draft on FUMBBL will be a bit different from the rulebook. Christer explained it here, worth a read:
https://fumbbl.com/p/blog&c=Christer&id=23179
"the budget for games and winning needed to be cut down. Instead of 20k per game, 20k per win, 10k per tie, simply halving it ended up at a reasonable place. Basically, instead of halving the season length, I halved the budget gained to maintain the longer season."
just a quote, but it's better to read the whole blog. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %19, %2023 - %12:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 12:01 |
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yes I know but I did not find any mention on the agent's fees.. and if there should be proportional to players experience |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 12:04 |
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The Re-Draft budget gold gained is halved, that's a relevant change. The Re-Draft budget's cap is 1350k, but it could be less than that. |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 12:35 |
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All this will not mitigate the min-max tiers1 problem raised by Nelphine
| Nelphine wrote: | | Redraft, due to agent fees, will heavily favor teams which can redraft onlyv1 or 2 players - you'll redraft a legend ball carrier, and a legend killer. The rest of the team will be rookies. This will heavily favor teams who have strong rookies - which are the tier 1 teams. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 19, 2023 - 12:38 |
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There will always be balance issues with the tier system.
If you really want to nerf the stat freaks, stat boosts should be random and capped at max +1 per characteristic, and skill slots should be reduced by 1-2, with fewer skills synergizing together there would be more balance. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %19, %2023 - %12:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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