Mingoose
Joined: Jul 28, 2016
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 Posted:
Jul 17, 2023 - 16:34 |
 
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | Dedicated fans instead of a Blitzer is literally one of the worst things I've ever seen in Bloodbowl.
The fact that you are pumping it to 6 from 3.. even worse! |
This is literally the worst instance of hyperbole in Blood Bowl. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Jul 17, 2023 - 18:53 |
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Is it though?! Dropping your best player for something irrelevant.
One of the worst as in it's not as bad as new players taking 8 rerolls or 10 cheerleaders. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Jul 17, 2023 - 19:44 |
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its not irrelevant? more DF = more money = more players (including your best players), as long as you don't focus on the first game |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Jul 17, 2023 - 20:29 |
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DF above 3 is almost irrelevant |
_________________
Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Jul 17, 2023 - 20:55 |
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*blink* do you always plan to lose? i mean, even if you lose 3 games in a row, and lose DF every time, that's still a minimum of 15k extra, and the average is definitely higher
(on average, you will earn more than the difference between the price of a lineman compared to the price of a blitzer, before you drop to 3 DF) |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Jul 17, 2023 - 21:07 |
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Okay, so each match, you get 5k per ∆DF, right?
If you tie, that's the end of it.
If you win, there's a 1/6 chance per ∆DF that having the DF point costs you the DF improvement. (@Nelphine, I think this is what Jimmy is looking at.)
If you lose, there's a 1/6 chance per ∆DF that having the DF point costs you the DF point.
If you tie 20% of your games, that means DF6 vs DF3 is 80% of half a DF point, of 0.4 DF per match. As you win or lose matches and lose ∆DF, this difference changes, becoming 80% of a third of a DF pont, or 0.267 DF per match, on 10k winnings, and then halving again to 0.133 DF per match on 5k winnings, until finally they equalize.
On one hand, we have the value of 30k gold pieces now, which translates to starting with +MA and Block on another player in exchange for not being able to pick up a +MA/Block player later (not as good, but opportunity costs must be considered); on the other, we have 15k after the first match, 13k after the second match, and more than 11k but less than 12k after the third, plus more over time until they finally equalize at some point late in a long season.
The cash value of those extra Dedicated Fans will probably eventually pay for one of the linemen I will have to sack because he rolled a bad Strength skill, which is a 45.5% chance, not a thing I don't have to consider. Of course, I don't have to replace him with a Lineman, I can buy positionals instead, but with the DF I would have had anyway, plus opponent DF, 2d3, and touchdowns, I can handle the difference.
The other arguments are:
1) DF isn't just money, it's reduced TV. This may or may not be valuable but sometimes it's gargantuan, as it denies a key star or buys you an inducement you want. This doesn't have to justify the cost, that's what the added winnings are for. As fringe benefits, "and it's free in TV terms!" is pretty sweet.
2) Blitzers want Dodge badly, and then they're too much of an investment to take randoms on (besides, random G on expensive Block players is stupid, you've already cherry-picked the best A skill, and S skills are low percentage). I really like the Block and the +MA is certainly better to have than not to have, but the fact that I know this guy's not rolling into something really cool because he's not rolling at all means fewer opportunities for me to build value (besides Dodge). So I want the points to snowball on the linos who frequently really want a certain complementary skill after the initial roll (like Block, Wrestle, Sneaky Git, Dodge, whatever), the Blitzers can show up, score twice, and that's all I really gotta have.
3) Speaking of which, there's only one amazing primary skill for Blitzers, so then you have a player who will probably accumulate SPP quickly and have to settle for merely "worthy" skills. You can random into the damn "worthy" skills on linemen, that's of limited value. Yes you start with Block, but after 2 matches, that's irrelevant.
4) Starting with a lot of linos means it's hard for a bad first couple matches to set you back. So even if you're weaker and this stunts your development because you needed that MA to get a TD, it also means that MA player didn't die before you got the Apo, and whoever did, you probably dgaf about them. Then, when you're putting the pieces together, the lino pieces start building themselves. |
_________________
Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Mingoose
Joined: Jul 28, 2016
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| Posted:
Jul 18, 2023 - 05:11 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | Is it though?! Dropping your best player for something irrelevant.
One of the worst as in it's not as bad as new players taking 8 rerolls or 10 cheerleaders. |
The Blitzer is worth 10 TV in efficiency over a lino, so you are losing 10TV in your opening matchmaking. In return, you get more money to spend, and once you hire back your Blitzer you regain that 10 TV efficiency boost. Tactically you want to have 1 blitzer on the field to maximize the blitz, but if you can protect him a second isn't necessary. Nice to have though to maximize the blitz options.
As for 3 vs 6 DF, starting with 940 vs 970 TV is actually huge if you are likely to face 1000 or 990 TV teams, which quite a few starting rosters result in. This wouldn't matter for HE, but for races that can, how much TV efficiency does Cindy bring?
I wouldn't say dropping the Blitzer for DF is TV optimized, but it is far from unviable. |
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MerryZ
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
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Jul 18, 2023 - 07:52 |
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I would never drop blitzers over fans.
Also wouldnt suggest it to anyone, ever. |
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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Jul 18, 2023 - 16:06 |
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As soon as we have run out of useful new perspectives, the game is solved and there's no reason to keep playing. Fortunately, that still feels like it's a long way off: we have the basic ideas down, but the current edition is less than 3 years old, so a lot of the best bank shots have yet to be taken. Rejecting new approaches out of hand seems to be the most counterproductive thing you can do. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Jul 18, 2023 - 16:25 |
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You said it yourself, "useful". |
_________________
Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Jul 18, 2023 - 16:26 |
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Please address my argument rather than just pooh-poohing it out of hand. Otherwise, you're not actually contributing. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Jul 18, 2023 - 16:45 |
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its ok JR, no one likes moneyball |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Jul 18, 2023 - 16:51 |
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This is the moneyball edition. |
_________________
Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 18, 2023 - 16:53 |
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As I stated before I'm not gonna argue. There is no changing peoples minds, and I don't want to. I do want to chuckle at the concept of not taking your best players though.
If you want to do it then good for you. |
_________________
Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Jul 18, 2023 - 17:13 |
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Dude, any errors in my thinking are just fodder for the next effort to subvert the "best practices" and I would love to hear them. The idea I'm pushing seemed bass-ackward to me at first, but I have come to see Dedicated Fans as a multi-purpose tool of great power. Money used to sit there worthlessly in prior editions, but now you can use it as a way to shave TV or hunt for secondary skills with no TV penalty.
There's sort of a fox-and-hedgehog thing going on, where the MA and Block on one player for two games represent the one big thing, and the money, TV, and favorable developmental quirks are the bunch of little things. Having run a bunch of young lino-driven teams, my experience is that extra money can be used to build long term advantage by fishing for random skills. It certainly doesn't work on every roster, need linos who can do it all and either have good economics (Humans) or good skill access (Chaos, High/Dark Elves). Amazons are, of course, cheating. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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