FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jun 21, 2023 - 17:22

No problem for me, I will keep on enforcing the time out. People will be pissed off, but it's not my fault if there is no automatic time out and if the site rules don't explain the time out policy.
Don't blame me if the site rules are like that.
As an aside, I just played a game where I timed myself out (I stopped moving players at 4 minutes even if my opponent didn't enforce the time out).

uzkulak

Joined: Mar 30, 2004

Posted: Jun 21, 2023 - 17:35

moph wrote:

The current rules don't have a turn time limit, so away with the time out button would be consistent.
Add a average turn time statistic to the coach profile.
Myself would prefer a hard 4 minute timeout combined with a pause button, that hides the boardstate, but not the chat for real life problems.

Some races (and team builds) have higher average turn times than others. Without additional context Im not sure how helpful this would be really.

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Jun 21, 2023 - 18:50

MattDakka wrote:

No problem for me, I will keep on enforcing the time out. People will be pissed off, but it's not my fault if there is no automatic time out and if the site rules don't explain the time out policy.
Don't blame me if the site rules are like that.
As an aside, I just played a game where I timed myself out (I stopped moving players at 4 minutes even if my opponent didn't enforce the time out).

And I suppose you will not take 10 secs to say to your opponents "just so you know, I will time you out after the 4 mins". Because you don't want to solve problems, you just want to be technically right.

If all you see around you is grief and pissed off opponents, chances are neither them nor the rules are the problem.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jun 21, 2023 - 19:05

Sometimes I warn my opponents, sometimes I don't, since it's not mandatory according to site rules. Sometimes I warned and opponent didn't read the chat.
If you criticize what I do then you criticize site rules. Warning opponents is a gift, not a thing I must do.
I'm for adding a rule to the FUMBBL's rule page explaining that time outs don't require a warning.
That would remove the hassle of informing every opponent that I time out at 4 minutes.
A clear site rule is the elegant solution to the issue.
When rules are not written, there is room for ambiguity. When there is ambiguity people can be pissed off.

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Jun 21, 2023 - 19:12

I didn't say that you must do it.
I say that you don't care if doing it solves the problem alright.
Which means that you are not looking for a solution. Because the solution is already there and has been used by polite fumbblers since 2003.

Stop saying shit like "I'm looking for an elegant solution to the issue". The most elegant solution is "be nice to people" and you don't like it.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jun 21, 2023 - 19:16

The solution is writing a site rule describing all the details of the time out policy. It doesn't require lot of time investment such as adding an automatic time out to the client.
It's not a matter of "being nice". Being nice is something subjective, which can't be used as a rule.
For me "being nice" is not overtaking 4 minutes to play a turn, for example.
It's too subjective to consider it a rule.
The site rules are there to state what people can and can't do.

Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Jun 21, 2023 - 19:29

'Be nice' is a site rule in many places. Its ambiguity is its strength. Site admins can do what they interpret as nice, and be correct. Which means if you do something that someone considers not nice, regardless of whether you agree, you have to stop and think, will the site admins agree?

If the site admins dont think it is nice, you may be in trouble, even if you think it's nice.

If the site admins think it is nice, and you dont agree, you may have to reconsider what is nice [in the eyes of the people who you accept as being an authority over an activity you enjoy]. Upon reconsideration, you may have to reconsider if you actually enjoy that activity.

Matt, I would tread very carefully. It doesn't necessarily matter what you think - if the admins think it is causing problems to the site, they have specifically left ambiguity so they can tell you that you are wrong, even if you think you are doing something similar to what someone else has done.

Its specifically done so that you can't say 'but this other behaviour was acceptable!' That's the point. One behaviour can be subjectively wrong, and therefore actionable, even if you subjectively think it's ok.

Last edited by Nelphine on %b %21, %2023 - %19:%Jun; edited 1 time in total

Kondor

Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Posted: Jun 21, 2023 - 19:45

My opinion is that at 4 minutes the time out should happen automatically. That way there is no ambiguity. People will adjust and speed up their play.

Currently, if I see a coach moving slowly I immediately tell them I will time them out if they hit 4 minutes. I will usually say that at about the 2 minute mark if play is not progressing quickly.

That usually solves the issue but I time out without further warning.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jun 21, 2023 - 20:45

Nelphine wrote:

Matt, I would tread very carefully. It doesn't necessarily matter what you think - if the admins think it is causing problems to the site, they have specifically left ambiguity so they can tell you that you are wrong, even if you think you are doing something similar to what someone else has done.

Ok, but if they tell me I'm doing something wrong, then I will have a clear rule to follow. Currently the rule is "time out doesn't require a prior warning" (I asked admins). I stick to that. If that's wrong I'm open to change my behaviour accordingly, but I need a clear rule.
Give me clear rules to follow.
The subjective opinions have 0 value in the world of logic.

Last edited by MattDakka on %b %21, %2023 - %20:%Jun; edited 1 time in total

RDaneel

Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Posted: Jun 21, 2023 - 20:45

guys let's be honest: hitting the timeout button without any warning is not against the rules of the site.
Just as it is indisputable that 80% of coaches who experience a sudden timeout after 4 mins will complain to the person who caused it and say "you're rude!" (go look at the dozens of timeout forums and count how many complain about the sudden timeout and how many like Matt complain that there is no automatic tiemout Wink

.

This never-ending (and tiresome) story will end the day s.o will decide to regulate timeout.

And I repeat: 4 minutes per turn + 8 mins budget to be used in the whole game (after which automatic timeout) is a solution that would please everyone. The BRB and AFK is solved with a notice in chat: I have a problem. Close the client and time stops.

End of discussions.

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Jun 21, 2023 - 20:47

"Time out doesn't require a prior warning. Giving one costs you ten seconds of your life and solves all potential related problems. Failing (or even better, REFUSING) to give a warning will not get you banned but is a clear indicator of your contempt for human interaction."

Stick to that.

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Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Jun 21, 2023 - 20:48

Eh, I'm still against any turn going over 4 minutes.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jun 21, 2023 - 20:48

I prefer an automatic time out but, if automatic time out is not possible (due to reasons etc.) then a clear site rule would be appreciated.
If no clear site rule is written I stick to what admins told me, i.e. I can time out opponents without prior warning.

Site rules are there to protect each other from selfish behaviour. If the site rule allows me to time out opponent without warning, then I'm fine and nobody has the right to criticize what I do, unless Christer decides to change the rule, of course.
Feel free to complain about what I do, I will just ignore your 0 value noise.
If the human interaction involves reading 0 value (from a logical point of view) posts then I'm not interested in human interaction.

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Jun 21, 2023 - 20:53

MattDakka wrote:

I prefer an automatic time out but, if automatic time out is not possible (due to reasons etc.) then a clear site rule would be appreciated.
If no clear site rule is written I stick to what admins told me, i.e. I can time out opponents without prior warning.

Site rules are there to protect each other from selfish behaviour. If the site rule allows me to time out opponent without warning, then I'm fine and nobody has the right to criticize what I do, unless Christer decides to change the rule, of course.
Feel free to complain about what I do, I will just ignore your 0 value noise.

Jesus Christ, you're a broken record.
You are allowed to give no warning so you give no warning.
You CAN give a warning though, but you prefer not to give it.
That's your problem and people have absolutely the right to criticize you because you sound like a trash human being for childishly refusing to do something simple to alleviate a problem. My guess is because you win more if you can timeout with no warning, but I'm not even sure of that any more. You're simply an entitled manchild.
Do as you want. People will keep despising you and they absolutely have the right to.
They have no right to report you. But hell yeah they have the right to think you're trash.

And that's because of your behaviour, not because of your preference for short turns and reasonably fast bb (which pretty much everyone shares with you).

Also, lol @ you for talking about other people's selfish behaviour. That's the funniest thing I read in a while.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jun 21, 2023 - 21:02

I guess that, by now, you should have realized that I don't care about what people think about me. In case you didn't, now you know it.
I'm here to play Blood Bowl in the best way I can, the rest is but noise.