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Poll
Streaming live your match on TwitchTV personal channel....
Hey! Wait ! My opponent should ask mine consent!
30%
 30%  [ 45 ]
Yes! I want to be an Internet Movie MegaStar! And pay me royalties!
13%
 13%  [ 20 ]
GASP! Shocked! I will leave FUMBBL and internet and I will recover in an old Monastery
2%
 2%  [ 4 ]
TwitchTV? what is TV? What is Internet? I know only www.fumbbl.com
7%
 7%  [ 11 ]
I think it can be done or not, it does not hurt me at all...
38%
 38%  [ 58 ]
Will trow a pie in face of .... (you chose the coach-name ;-) !!!
7%
 7%  [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 149


RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post 22 Posted: May 27, 2023 - 21:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Today while watching a game as a spectator (with the JavaWS client) I discovered that the coach who was playing was streaming "real-time" his match on his TwitchTV channel.
If you play a game and you want to make an easy-check just try to browse
https://www.twitch.tv/XXXXXXXXXXX
where you replace XXXXXXXXXXXX with the coach nick-name (provided the XXXXXXXXXXXX Fumbbl nickname and the TwitchTV nick is the same: in this case it was) and you can check if the coach is streaming real-time your match

So I connected to his TwitchTV link and I was put in front of the pitch, with the teams, and in a small windows bottom right the guy with headphones was quietly talking to people connected to his channel watching the game too and of course some were also FUMBBL coaches (you can easily see from the chat on the side line where I recognized some nickname).
He had headphone and was speaking on the match realtime I presume some were giving him suggestions... to be honest as I am not an english native speaker I did not understand all (he spoke a very good english also a slang...) but for sure most of his chat was about the match
"what is doing now! Ah... mmmm what do you think should I move there? No... ah... let's see"...
something in this sense. I watched for 20 mins then I quit.

We are speaking of a Competitive match (BBT8)

I honestly don't think anything can be done about it:
"It's the Internet baby and there's nothing you can do about it"

Personally I founded weird

I personally don't like my game streamed without my consent on the web - even if is a private channel where anybody can access even without a TwitchTV account (outside of FUMBBL I mean where people signed a sort of Code conduct) as well for a matter of my own privacy...

it truck me, and so I decided to write on the forum to check with others what do you think: if is it okay to stream games without permission of the other coach? Or do you see a concern or nothing at all and is only my own paranoia?


Last edited by RDaneel on %b %01, %2023 - %15:%Jun; edited 2 times in total
Dynamix



Joined: Jan 21, 2009

Post   Posted: May 27, 2023 - 21:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Its been normal on BB2 for some time , watching streamers brought me back to online BB after a 10 year break
Quite a few BB2 streamers have come over to FUMMBL lately

Its fine by me , coaches who stream tend to be pretty good , and not often seem to see the suggestions in chat or even act upon them , the commentary you were probably hearing is some thinking out loud
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: May 27, 2023 - 21:58 Reply with quote Back to top

There is also this

https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=help&op=rules

"Coaches are not allowed to listen to other people chatting about a game they are participating in. This includes spectator chat, commentary and live streams and applies to both direct and indirect listening."

You can report if feel like he was being coached.

I dont mind being streamed, but would like opponent to concentrate more on our game/chat than his streaming chat.
Im kinda silly that I still think bloodbowl more as a table game than an computar game o.O

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Last edited by MerryZ on %b %27, %2023 - %22:%May; edited 1 time in total
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: May 27, 2023 - 22:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Generally the streamer is at a disadvantage in terms of focus on the game, time allowance, multitasking.

For the most part streamers in BB are not doing this out of any real ego boost or otherwise, and are usually simply streaming because others ask them to or because it boosts the profile of the game/site they play it on.

It's actually extremely taxing to stream, like, 100million times worse than you can possibly imagine it to be.

And lastly for every single bit of good advice you will get from chat (which is usually seen 1-2min after it would be possible have any effect at a minimum, and is usually not actually game advice but people pointing out an error when you can't fix it because people actually don't facilitate cheating), you will receive 10 pieces of advice which constitute - bad maths / poor understanding / something you considered but discarded because it wasn't quite as good for unobvious reasons / something that on the face of it seems good but doesn't fit the plan for the drive you personally have.

Almost nobody is actually getting any benefit from twitch chat. In any game, not just blood bowl. Twitch chat is routinely the home of trolls, "banter" and cliques who mercilessly rip on the streamer and themselves. Streamers are also open to people simply waiting for them to enter their team/characters into matchmaking and then snipe them. Or, as you discovered, their opponents listening in on their thoughts or plans for the game/drive.

Streaming is something to be encouraged, it's no longer the "future" of some gaming, it is the present. And it's already changing development cycles and ideas of other games (UI/UX have been changed in many to facilitate streaming) as well as actually having a large impact on whether games are successful or not.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 27, 2023 - 22:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Personally I don't mind if the game I play gets streamed, but I think that it would be better and polite to inform the opponent coach about the intention to stream the match and ask for their permission first. Some people could not like to be streamed and they have the right to forbid it (edit. "the moral right", it's allowed by freshly updated site rules) (we could argue that playing an online BB match on FUMBBL with spectators already is not a private thing, although the number of people watching is way lower). This is of course easy to say but hard to do, because you can't be sure that your match won't be streamed, even if you don't agree about it.

As as aside, I think that streaming helps to make BB and FUMBBL more popular (it will never be a mainstream game, but more advertisement can't be bad) and I don't think that a guy wanting to get an unfair advantage would stream.
If I wanted to "cheat" I think I would ask a better coach to tell me advices via voice chat, but without streaming the game. Streaming with many people interacting can make the streamer lose the focus.


Last edited by MattDakka on %b %27, %2023 - %23:%May; edited 2 times in total
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: May 27, 2023 - 22:55
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

MerryZ wrote:
There is also this


You are right. This is basically a rule that isn't in line with reality anymore, and has been adjusted to match. The ability to stream the game is healthy for the site and I have been encouraging it for a long time already.
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: May 27, 2023 - 23:04 Reply with quote Back to top

If the streamer doesn't get any help who I cannot judge i would say who cares but ... there are some but:

After read the first comments I feel the same way here as MerryZ though (and hear hear I agree for the first time with MattDakka too! wow!) :

1) while playing the game, I dislike losing the social aspect. I find it sad to talk to blank, someone who says nothing for the whole game except a ggwp at the end because is concentrated only on his TwitchTV channel. Apart from the privacy aspect it is really the social aspect of the game I miss.

2) if my game is rebroadcast on TwitchTV I would like to be informed (at least to see my adversary and see what kind of guy he is maybe I can decide to turn on TwitchTV and connect to interact with him...?!)

Don't underestimate that despite FUMBBL is WW Global played, the rules of privacy are are perceived differently in different Countries

So I voted for 1.

P.S) Just when I was writing this post I realized that the FUMBBL site rules were updated (BOLD and underline is mine)
https://fumbbl.com/p/help?op=rules

Below the updated rules
I'm not 100% sure to have understood the last point on "coaching" to be honest

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Streaming

- Live-streaming is explicitly allowed and encouraged.
- Playing a game should be considered playing it in a public space, where an audience could be present, and explicit permission from the opponent is not needed.
-"Coaching" by live chat is basically impossible to prevent, and is therefore NOT AGAINTS the rules.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 27, 2023 - 23:11 Reply with quote Back to top

The last point says that, since it's impossible to stop people helping a coach via live chat (for example, a live chat on the streaming channel), it's not forbidden by the site rules.
The site can't forbid things it can't check/stop.
I don't care about being streamed, but on the other hand I can understand that somebody could not like to be streamed, due to reasons.
For example, maybe he's trying a race/ruleset for the first time and he doesn't want to look like a noob, or he could be testing a roster build/tactic he doesn't want to advertise because he will use it in his next NAF tournament.
Anyway, considering the overall picture, being streamed helps FUMBBL and BB. There are way more positive sides than negative sides.
Just to be safe, always expect to be streamed by anybody.

I would have voted for this option:
"Yes! I want to be an Internet Movie MegaStar! And pay me royalties!"
but I want to be a Legend, not a Mega-Star! Razz

Not nitpicking, just kidding.
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post 18 Posted: May 28, 2023 - 00:22 Reply with quote Back to top

This time the nitpicking was necessary because I looked like a real Boomer

I already knew TwitchTV for general game-broadcasting but now is clear can be really the future for FUMBBL too.

In a (close?) future maybe TwitchTV will probably stream 100% of Fumbbl matches? Who knows but the rules just updated indicate a clear path...

Maybe also the chat and the way we spectate the game today will change. Much less "written" and more "real time video/audio" interaction (like is already in tons of on line gaming )

Of course cheating will become more sophisticated but I understand why the admin is unable to regulate this point (because it is virtually impossible to tell if the person who is streaming is getting help on the headset, and you can't even punish him if someone from public chat tells him something ... because if he publishes the game in theory everyone can access his chat on TwitchTV ).

Anyway
TwitchTV is not an exception, is a trend and this trend is fully encouraged by admin.

The message now is fully acknowledge.
HaruHaru



Joined: Sep 05, 2019

Post   Posted: May 28, 2023 - 00:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer wrote:
MerryZ wrote:
There is also this


You are right. This is basically a rule that isn't in line with reality anymore, and has been adjusted to match. The ability to stream the game is healthy for the site and I have been encouraging it for a long time already.


I do not like being on display out of site so to say without being asked permission.

Does this rule change mean that you will be able to chat with your spectators if you want to, since essentially, it's the same thing.
Storr



Joined: Mar 25, 2020

Post   Posted: May 28, 2023 - 00:49 Reply with quote Back to top

You always could. Have you heard of things like discord?
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 28, 2023 - 01:04 Reply with quote Back to top

RDaneel wrote:
This time the nitpicking was necessary because I looked like a real Boomer

Better Boomer than Bomber! Very Happy
HaruHaru



Joined: Sep 05, 2019

Post   Posted: May 28, 2023 - 02:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Storr wrote:
You always could. Have you heard of things like discord?


Discord? What like, strife or disagreement?
SkittleMosaic



Joined: May 17, 2018

Post   Posted: May 28, 2023 - 02:55 Reply with quote Back to top

If not asked for consent I'd like to at least be informed so I know who's seeing what I type in chat and can adjust accordingly, even though I don't say much anyway and knowing more people are watching makes me anxious.

Couldn't care less about external coaching; more likely the plays suggested are worse as people can't read minds, and if it's a new player getting help then I'm all for it because it can take a long time to get a handle on the basics and conventional lines of play and can push a lot of players away.
badger89



Joined: Jun 03, 2014

Post   Posted: May 28, 2023 - 10:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe a icon on coach home page so coach know if they steam and can look them up on twitch.tv

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