Candlejack
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Jan 05, 2024 - 15:17 |
 
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As written above it is the combination of being prone when performing the block. That makes it clear as performing and declaring are different things. |
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sebco
Joined: Feb 14, 2005
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Jan 05, 2024 - 22:18 |
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I think Candlejack already wrote everything needed to counter your opponent argument (= I declare a Blitz action, I first move to stand up for free, then I'm standing next to opponent player and perform Block action without needing to roll for standing up).
That said, FAQ (and then next rulebook) could simply complete Jump Up skill description adding roll is only made for Block "on its own and not as part of a blitz action". |
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Javark
Joined: Apr 19, 2015
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Jan 05, 2024 - 23:37 |
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| sebco wrote: | I think Candlejack already wrote everything needed to counter your opponent argument (= I declare a Blitz action, I first move to stand up for free, then I'm standing next to opponent player and perform Block action without needing to roll for standing up).
That said, FAQ (and then next rulebook) could simply complete Jump Up skill description adding roll is only made for Block "on its own and not as part of a blitz action". |
That's exactly what I need. |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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Jan 06, 2024 - 12:00 |
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consider also that when you declare a blitz action you can decide at the end of the movement NOT performing the "block" (for whatever reason, for instance you realize you are going to roll -2D dices and you decide to move but DOES not perform the block, so you lost the blitz).
In this case you just moved and Jump Up does not require to roll for a movement.
So as "block" at the end of a "blitz" action is not compulsory it is clear cannot be asked a mandatory roll to perform a movement and "maybe" a block at the end. Maybe FAQ can better clarify this but as the ruleset is written today is enough clear imo not requiring more explanations. |
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ben_awesome
Joined: May 11, 2016
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Jan 06, 2024 - 12:37 |
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| Javark wrote: | t
Everything is very logical, but the wall I am hitting is "Blitz has the Block action, so the agility check is needed".
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Block is an action
Move is an action
Blitz is an action (that it combines the two previous actions is irrelevant its a differently named action combining two actions) You don't perform a move and block per se, you perform a blitz. |
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Javark
Joined: Apr 19, 2015
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Jan 06, 2024 - 21:52 |
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| ben_awesome wrote: | | Javark wrote: | t
Everything is very logical, but the wall I am hitting is "Blitz has the Block action, so the agility check is needed".
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Block is an action
Move is an action
Blitz is an action (that it combines the two previous actions is irrelevant its a differently named action combining two actions) You don't perform a move and block per se, you perform a blitz. |
This is actually my favorite point. Still, my original post is about some kind of official statement excluding Blitz explicitly, as unfortunately logic alone is not enough in this case  |
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gamelsetlmatch
Joined: Mar 05, 2013
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Jan 06, 2024 - 22:32 |
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It makes good sense have some kind of test for a player to get up off the ground and still cover as much distance as someone who started off standing up ..quickness!! Some people have an extra gear and some don’t lol
However, I do not think a complete player turn should be wiped out for a player not being able to muster up enough umpffff
It makes most sense that the Jump Up player simply loses 3ma when getting up from prone if he fails the check but can still at least do something
Having them just lie there like as if they bone headed makes it a negatrait (imho) ..if anything, Jump Up should give a player an extra movement (a bit of a stretch lol) or GFI at such a costly risk |
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Javark
Joined: Apr 19, 2015
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Jan 07, 2024 - 00:46 |
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in that interpretation, you can still choose to just Blitz without using the Jump Up skill "ability check" negatrait... |
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ben_awesome
Joined: May 11, 2016
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| Posted:
Jan 07, 2024 - 03:12 |
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| Javark wrote: | | ben_awesome wrote: | | Javark wrote: | t
Everything is very logical, but the wall I am hitting is "Blitz has the Block action, so the agility check is needed".
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Block is an action
Move is an action
Blitz is an action (that it combines the two previous actions is irrelevant its a differently named action combining two actions) You don't perform a move and block per se, you perform a blitz. |
This is actually my favorite point. Still, my original post is about some kind of official statement excluding Blitz explicitly, as unfortunately logic alone is not enough in this case |
the official statement would be the rulebook, where it defines the actions, move, pass, handover, foul, block, blitz etc.
Blitz is a separate action, separate from both block and move, you don't declare you will do a move and block you declare a blitz.
In this way the rules are applied to the action; Blitz which is not a block or a move and not its component parts |
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Happy_Amateur
Joined: Jan 14, 2019
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Jan 07, 2024 - 08:18 |
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Javark
Joined: Apr 19, 2015
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Jan 07, 2024 - 13:09 |
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| ben_awesome wrote: |
Blitz which is not a block or a move and not its component parts |
This statement alone, clear derivation from basic logic, is not enough. What they want to read is something like posted above, that is: "Block, but not in the context of a Blitz action".
Unfortunately, even though Blitz is defined in its own section, the definition states that Blitz is a compound action that includes a Move action and a Block action.
- Either the Blitz definition clearly states - I know, normally it's useless as this is the default understanding
of the rulebook - that whenever a requirement would need a Block action, the Blitz action should be excluded by default, unless explicitly stated;
- Or all the skills having Block as requirement explicitly exclude the Blitz action; |
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ben_awesome
Joined: May 11, 2016
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Jan 07, 2024 - 13:19 |
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Brawler excludes the Blitz action block, as did grab (to a certain extent it behaves differently in a blitz than on a normal block), multiblock doesn't work on a blitz etc. |
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sebco
Joined: Feb 14, 2005
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 Posted:
Jan 07, 2024 - 18:00 |
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@Javark : I do agree that Jump Up skill description could be more clear, stating that roll is only required for a Block action on its own and not for a Block action as part of a Blitz action.
Nethertheless, at this state, this is still easy to answer to your opponent coach who wants you to roll for Jump Up during your blitz action. I suppose this opponent coach doesn't ask you to roll for Jump Up when your Jump Up player announces a blitz action with a 4 squares move, for example, and then a block because Jump Up is used during the move part of the blitz action.
This is exactly the same principle when your Jump Up player is prone and blitzes an opponent player standing next to them.
A blitz action may be block+move but also move+block or move+block+move (and even only block or only move or nothing ).
This opponent coach believe your prone player is in a block+move sequence but they're in a move+block+move sequence. Your player first moves to stand up for free (using Jump Up without rolling dice) then blocks then moves (if they want / can). |
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I like cheese but don't call me skaven ! |
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Javark
Joined: Apr 19, 2015
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| Posted:
Jan 07, 2024 - 19:22 |
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| sebco wrote: | @Javark : I do agree that Jump Up skill description could be more clear, stating that roll is only required for a Block action on its own and not for a Block action as part of a Blitz action.
Nethertheless, at this state, this is still easy to answer to your opponent coach who wants you to roll for Jump Up during your blitz action. I suppose this opponent coach doesn't ask you to roll for Jump Up when your Jump Up player announces a blitz action with a 4 squares move, for example, and then a block because Jump Up is used during the move part of the blitz action.
This is exactly the same principle when your Jump Up player is prone and blitzes an opponent player standing next to them.
A blitz action may be block+move but also move+block or move+block+move (and even only block or only move or nothing ).
This opponent coach believe your prone player is in a block+move sequence but they're in a move+block+move sequence. Your player first moves to stand up for free (using Jump Up without rolling dice) then blocks then moves (if they want / can). |
They do agree to have the Jump Up skill "optional" (so, it's not a negatrait...), that is: I can still use the default Blitz on a prone player without having the benefit from Jump Up. But, if in any part of the action, a Block is performed, an agility check is requested. |
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Rags
Joined: Nov 09, 2008
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Jan 07, 2024 - 19:29 |
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Haven't seen this level of nerd overthink in a while! Candlejack and Tussock are right of course. It's simple: Jump negates the -3 move penalty for standing up on a Blitz, Fourl, Hand Off, Move, or Pass action. The Block part of any Blitz action costs 1 square of movemment as normal. Whether this is at start, end or middle of Blitz is immaterial. There's nothing to think about, just stand your guy up and do your Move/Blitz/Pass/whatever as normal, with player's listed MA, no penalty.
The only action that Jump Up has any different effect on is a straight Block action. Normally blocking isn't allowed after standing up or any other kind of move, but Jump Up allows an AG test to Block from Prone position. If you declare the Block and pass the AG test, stand your player up and make your Block. If you declare Block and fail AG test, player activation ends. That's all there is to it. |
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