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2015-04-14 10:35:05
6 votes, rating 4.3
6 votes, rating 4.3
Black Box and League, two different worlds
First of all, sorry for any error, English is not my language
A nice chat during a match, made me think about this
The difference from League and Black box play.
Let's talk with an example, the skaven, but this example work nearly perfectly for EVERY RACE
If you play in a league, and you lose your 16spp gutter runner and you haven't enough money to buy a new one, you'll play with a journeyman line more (50k), and the skilled gutter less (120k)... Your TV will be 70k less
Now, your next opponent, will not change, it's a league, it's scheduled. You'll change a 16spp gutter with a journeyman rat + a babe inducement. Everyone can recognize that your next match you'll be WEAKER, because a 16spp gutter is MUCH MORE better than journeyrat + babe
Now the black box
You lose the same 16spp gutter runner, and again you'll have to play next match with a journeyman rat.
But your opponent WON'T BE the same... You're probably going to face a 70k weaker opponent... something like an opponent with 3 less skill on his players... with 2 MB and a Tackle less the the previous match
This is the BIG difference.
If you lose a key player in a league, you suffer it a lot, because your next opponents will be strong as they were, and you give good players for inducements, usually a lot less effective than their price (and the player you lose)
If you lose a key player in the box, you're going to face a weaker opponent, that sometime means even an easier match for your other 3 gutters
Another difference is that in the league, you're not concerned only with "this match", but with the next and the match after that. In a league, I can decide to not mark a key tacklePOMBER in the final turn, because losing the match do not ruin the season and that gutter can make me still win the league
In black box, only THIS MATCH is what matter, and (considering the previous point) I can mark the tacklePOMBER without fear in the last turn, because if I lose the gutter, it's not a big issue, my next opponent will be much more weaker.
In the league can happen to sacrifice a victory to save a gutter (except for key matches that can mean win lose of the season).
In the box it's more effective to sacrifice a gutter to win the match.
In the league you usually use an apo to save your players, because you desperately need that player for the rest of the season
In the box is more effective to use the apo to make the key player recover from a BH, because no player is desperately needed, if you lose it, you'll face weaker opponent, but it can mean victory in THIS MATCH
This consideration is "mind changing" for me... and the effect will be that I'll probably going to completely change my black box game style with skaven. I'm going to protect a lot less my key players in the second half, especially in the final turns, if the sacrifice can mean the change of a tie/lose in a victory/tie
I don't know if someone is interested in my epiphany, but that's it
A nice chat during a match, made me think about this
The difference from League and Black box play.
Let's talk with an example, the skaven, but this example work nearly perfectly for EVERY RACE
If you play in a league, and you lose your 16spp gutter runner and you haven't enough money to buy a new one, you'll play with a journeyman line more (50k), and the skilled gutter less (120k)... Your TV will be 70k less
Now, your next opponent, will not change, it's a league, it's scheduled. You'll change a 16spp gutter with a journeyman rat + a babe inducement. Everyone can recognize that your next match you'll be WEAKER, because a 16spp gutter is MUCH MORE better than journeyrat + babe
Now the black box
You lose the same 16spp gutter runner, and again you'll have to play next match with a journeyman rat.
But your opponent WON'T BE the same... You're probably going to face a 70k weaker opponent... something like an opponent with 3 less skill on his players... with 2 MB and a Tackle less the the previous match
This is the BIG difference.
If you lose a key player in a league, you suffer it a lot, because your next opponents will be strong as they were, and you give good players for inducements, usually a lot less effective than their price (and the player you lose)
If you lose a key player in the box, you're going to face a weaker opponent, that sometime means even an easier match for your other 3 gutters
Another difference is that in the league, you're not concerned only with "this match", but with the next and the match after that. In a league, I can decide to not mark a key tacklePOMBER in the final turn, because losing the match do not ruin the season and that gutter can make me still win the league
In black box, only THIS MATCH is what matter, and (considering the previous point) I can mark the tacklePOMBER without fear in the last turn, because if I lose the gutter, it's not a big issue, my next opponent will be much more weaker.
In the league can happen to sacrifice a victory to save a gutter (except for key matches that can mean win lose of the season).
In the box it's more effective to sacrifice a gutter to win the match.
In the league you usually use an apo to save your players, because you desperately need that player for the rest of the season
In the box is more effective to use the apo to make the key player recover from a BH, because no player is desperately needed, if you lose it, you'll face weaker opponent, but it can mean victory in THIS MATCH
This consideration is "mind changing" for me... and the effect will be that I'll probably going to completely change my black box game style with skaven. I'm going to protect a lot less my key players in the second half, especially in the final turns, if the sacrifice can mean the change of a tie/lose in a victory/tie
I don't know if someone is interested in my epiphany, but that's it
Comments
Posted by Roland on 2015-04-14 10:39:59
You're spot on there, box and league are two different worlds.
It also takes far longer time to develop a team in league.
+ T16 fouls really do matter i league ;)
It also takes far longer time to develop a team in league.
+ T16 fouls really do matter i league ;)
Posted by Leilond on 2015-04-14 11:07:50
Wow... didn't thought about the T16 foul
In black box is unusefull to do, and not a problem to recive (again, if you lose a player, your next opponents will be proportionally weaker)
In League, fouling a key player in T16, can make your most important opponent, the one that is on top of the league with you, much more weaker and let you win the entire league... with a well done kick in the face of his best player in turn 16
Completely another game... And till now I played box like it was plain blood bowl... but it isn't. There are huge differences between the game as it is intended by the rules, and black box
I'll see in the next 15-20 matches, if this will change my experience, feelings and records with the black box
In black box is unusefull to do, and not a problem to recive (again, if you lose a player, your next opponents will be proportionally weaker)
In League, fouling a key player in T16, can make your most important opponent, the one that is on top of the league with you, much more weaker and let you win the entire league... with a well done kick in the face of his best player in turn 16
Completely another game... And till now I played box like it was plain blood bowl... but it isn't. There are huge differences between the game as it is intended by the rules, and black box
I'll see in the next 15-20 matches, if this will change my experience, feelings and records with the black box
Posted by mister__joshua on 2015-04-14 11:33:30
For the perfect T16 league foul; https://www.fumbbl.com/p/match?op=view&id=3549789 :D
Posted by JanMattys on 2015-04-14 11:42:15
Beware, though: in League, a T16 foul on a star is likely to give an advantage to the NEXT opponent your current opponent faces.
So if, for example, you are competing for #1 place with a killer Chaos, and you are currently facing woodies with a superstar Wardancer who are going to play that Chaos next, you might want to pass up the opportunity to foul the Wd, just because he's going to be a thorn in the side of your more direct competitor.
So if, for example, you are competing for #1 place with a killer Chaos, and you are currently facing woodies with a superstar Wardancer who are going to play that Chaos next, you might want to pass up the opportunity to foul the Wd, just because he's going to be a thorn in the side of your more direct competitor.
Posted by Roland on 2015-04-14 12:08:51
+1@Jan
you really have to think forward through the rounds first.
you really have to think forward through the rounds first.
Posted by MattDakka on 2015-04-14 12:11:59
In League though you can choose your skills according to the next opponent you will play against (so less bloat), and you can calculate exactly the TV gap between you and him in order to get a good inducement (Wizards are a great inducements, I will try to adjust my TV in order to either avoid a Wizard or get one, for example).
In Box you will never know the TV gap between you and your opponent before the match has been scheduled.
In Box you will never know the TV gap between you and your opponent before the match has been scheduled.
Posted by koadah on 2015-04-14 12:22:45
Just as a reminder to you guys. [L]eague is NOT only about scheduled leagues. I've run hundreds of events in the [L]eague division and only one of them has been a scheduled league.
You can play open games as in Ranked (but probably with less picking). I run mostly open leagues and tournaments.
You can play open games as in Ranked (but probably with less picking). I run mostly open leagues and tournaments.
Posted by xnoelx on 2015-04-14 12:50:05
Except that in B you could get a game with a higher rated team. Especially if you play one team for a lot of games.
Posted by Leilond on 2015-04-14 14:27:33
@xonelx
This is true, but it still remain the fact that if you lose a player 200k player in black box, your next opponent is PROBABLY going to be lower in TV, while in league ("normal" league, those not invented here in fumbbl that have a special name, that is "open league"), your next opponent isn't influenced by your TV, except for the choices the coache made to "soften" the TV
And by the way, to stay BY THE RULES, you have to finish your post match sequence, after the match, not "2 minutes before the next match"? ;)
This is true, but it still remain the fact that if you lose a player 200k player in black box, your next opponent is PROBABLY going to be lower in TV, while in league ("normal" league, those not invented here in fumbbl that have a special name, that is "open league"), your next opponent isn't influenced by your TV, except for the choices the coache made to "soften" the TV
And by the way, to stay BY THE RULES, you have to finish your post match sequence, after the match, not "2 minutes before the next match"? ;)
Posted by koadah on 2015-04-14 15:27:16
Open leagues were not invented on Fumbbl. They are pretty popular on table top where you have to play the person who is able to get a free evening or afternoon. ;)
If you mean scheduled leagues then say scheduled leagues. If you just say "league" that could be anything that happens in the [L]eague division. If you at least said "a league" that would be closer. ;)
Generally speaking 2 minutes before the next match is usually after the previous match. ;)
If you mean scheduled leagues then say scheduled leagues. If you just say "league" that could be anything that happens in the [L]eague division. If you at least said "a league" that would be closer. ;)
Generally speaking 2 minutes before the next match is usually after the previous match. ;)
Posted by Leilond on 2015-04-14 15:40:47
hehehe... sophism, by the way, those are less "significant" details
The main difference between L and B is that the skilled players casualities often create you big troubles in L, while will USUALLY make you simple meet a weaker opponent in B
And I didn't thought about this since few days ago, playing [B] like it was a big [L]
The main difference between L and B is that the skilled players casualities often create you big troubles in L, while will USUALLY make you simple meet a weaker opponent in B
And I didn't thought about this since few days ago, playing [B] like it was a big [L]