2011
2011-10-26 17:07:42
rating 3.4
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2011-10-26 17:07:42
55 votes, rating 3.4
55 votes, rating 3.4
Why Claw is the Dumbest Skill in the Game and People who Defend it are Dumb Too
Widdlywoooo....widdlywoooo....widddllllyywowooooo (this is one of those wibbly dream sequences in a movie, go with it....)
Imagine that claw doesn't exist. The skill has not been invented.
It's a dreamland. The box is full of teams of all kinds. All have their advantages and disadvantages. People experiment with different sides and there are teams of all kinds at many different tvs. Khemri, Humans, Undead, Halflings, Goblins, Dark Elves, Orcs, Slaan...all are here.
Suddenly, some smart arse proposes it.
"Hey," he says, "how about a skill called Claw?"
What does it do? we ask.
"Well, it reduces ANY armour to 7. Yeah! That's right, 7."
God that sounds horrible. That would totally negate more or less the only advantage that many teams have. Dwarves and Orcs aren't great at playing ball but they are at least durable. Also teams that rely on immoveable big guys like Mummies to hold the line are now just standing there waiting to get pummelled.
What else?
"It's only available to a few teams"
Huh? How do you mean?
"Well, it's a mutation, so only teams like chaos dwarves or chaos and so on can have it. I mean I know those teams are already pretty damn good and teams like Nurgle already have the ability to bash their way to glory but..."
Oh God. Is there more?
"Yeah, claw counts for piling on injury rerolls, so basically as long as somsone has piling on, mighty blow, and claw, they will cause an injury roll over half the time they block a player"
Have you thought this through at all?
"Hahahah! Just play elves or something, they've already got armour 7!"
....that's the dumbest counter-point I've ever heard.
"Well...then foul the players when they pile on!"
But by then it's too late because you've already had a really good chance to eliminate my player. And if I don't have claw I'm fouling you at -1 to your armour at best. AND I'm more likely to get sent off myself unless I have a team chock full of dirty players and sneaky gits. Is there any downside to taking this skill?
"Uhh.....no, and you can use it in combination with mighty blow. Basically, if you get to receive the KO first, you've got a bunch of free chances to remove opposing players before they even get to do ANYTHING! What do you reckon?"
I don't think it'll ever catch on. SURELY nobody would be dumb enough to think that Claw would be anything less than a gamebreaking disaster. Right?
Imagine that claw doesn't exist. The skill has not been invented.
It's a dreamland. The box is full of teams of all kinds. All have their advantages and disadvantages. People experiment with different sides and there are teams of all kinds at many different tvs. Khemri, Humans, Undead, Halflings, Goblins, Dark Elves, Orcs, Slaan...all are here.
Suddenly, some smart arse proposes it.
"Hey," he says, "how about a skill called Claw?"
What does it do? we ask.
"Well, it reduces ANY armour to 7. Yeah! That's right, 7."
God that sounds horrible. That would totally negate more or less the only advantage that many teams have. Dwarves and Orcs aren't great at playing ball but they are at least durable. Also teams that rely on immoveable big guys like Mummies to hold the line are now just standing there waiting to get pummelled.
What else?
"It's only available to a few teams"
Huh? How do you mean?
"Well, it's a mutation, so only teams like chaos dwarves or chaos and so on can have it. I mean I know those teams are already pretty damn good and teams like Nurgle already have the ability to bash their way to glory but..."
Oh God. Is there more?
"Yeah, claw counts for piling on injury rerolls, so basically as long as somsone has piling on, mighty blow, and claw, they will cause an injury roll over half the time they block a player"
Have you thought this through at all?
"Hahahah! Just play elves or something, they've already got armour 7!"
....that's the dumbest counter-point I've ever heard.
"Well...then foul the players when they pile on!"
But by then it's too late because you've already had a really good chance to eliminate my player. And if I don't have claw I'm fouling you at -1 to your armour at best. AND I'm more likely to get sent off myself unless I have a team chock full of dirty players and sneaky gits. Is there any downside to taking this skill?
"Uhh.....no, and you can use it in combination with mighty blow. Basically, if you get to receive the KO first, you've got a bunch of free chances to remove opposing players before they even get to do ANYTHING! What do you reckon?"
I don't think it'll ever catch on. SURELY nobody would be dumb enough to think that Claw would be anything less than a gamebreaking disaster. Right?
Comments
Posted by Woodstock on 2011-10-26 17:10:39
Claw is fine, far less impact then it had in LRB4. It is one of the few things I like about CRP.
Piling on is the issue.
Piling on is the issue.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-10-26 17:12:04
its really dumb .. right up until it opens your orc or dorf team up like a hot knife through butter....
Posted by Garion on 2011-10-26 17:12:23
woodstock is right, though making claw a free pick rather than a double was pretty dumb.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-10-26 17:12:38
But hey, how else do skaven get to fight dorfs?
Posted by pythrr on 2011-10-26 17:13:30
... moving all mutations to a normal roll was unfluffy and retarded.
Posted by Woodstock on 2011-10-26 17:13:34
I agree Garion, why they removed traits I will never understand.
Posted by Fela on 2011-10-26 17:19:29
Maybe to make skillups a tad less about luck.
I agree btw, the issue is PO, not claw. At least the dumb point is brought across in an amusing way here.
I agree btw, the issue is PO, not claw. At least the dumb point is brought across in an amusing way here.
Posted by Garion on 2011-10-26 17:19:51
I agree with woodstock again ;)
i also agree with pythrr mutations should be random and traits should be back - http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=35131 ;)
I don't agree on the skaven point mind, I think skaven are the team best equiped in the game for beating dwarves already they shouldn't win the bash war against them too. Though after typing this I realise maybe pythrr is being sarcastic, if so I'm an idiot for not getting that straight away ;)
i also agree with pythrr mutations should be random and traits should be back - http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=35131 ;)
I don't agree on the skaven point mind, I think skaven are the team best equiped in the game for beating dwarves already they shouldn't win the bash war against them too. Though after typing this I realise maybe pythrr is being sarcastic, if so I'm an idiot for not getting that straight away ;)
Posted by blader4411 on 2011-10-26 17:20:46
Stop using AV9 teams in the box.
Of course you'd suffer the most.
-Blader
Of course you'd suffer the most.
-Blader
Posted by pythrr on 2011-10-26 17:49:11
Fela,
Well, if the rules revisers hate luck so much, why are we still using dice?
Well, if the rules revisers hate luck so much, why are we still using dice?
Posted by Juff on 2011-10-26 17:52:52
Rated 1 for failure to see why a variable 0 to +2 to AV roll pales in comparison to being able to *reroll* AV or inj roll.
Posted by shadow46x2 on 2011-10-26 17:56:40
SURELY nobody would be dumb enough to think that Claw is a problem, when it got a huge nerf in comparison to the old rules, and isn't the real problem when compared to other much more broken skills.
Right?
Right?
Posted by garyt1 on 2011-10-26 18:01:05
I always find Dwarfs amongst the toughest sides to beat with Skaven. Get outmanned quick and the 4 good players in the side suffer against tackle.
Posted by Garion on 2011-10-26 18:15:31
Naaa CDs and Dwarves are the paper to skavens scissors. Just go for the ball and they cant handle it, and skaven are outmanned every game anyway, so that shouldnt be anything new really. For me skaven's toughest opponents are Norse, humans and dark elves.
Posted by PainState on 2011-10-26 20:40:34
I disagree with Woodstock
LRB4 Claw rocked...+2 on all AV rolls.
CRP Claw sucks in comparison. Everyone has a AV 7.
Claw in LRB4 was the bane of all AV 7 teams, they had a AV 5 w/MB or AV 6 with out....give me LRB 4 Claw any day of the week.
LRB4 Claw rocked...+2 on all AV rolls.
CRP Claw sucks in comparison. Everyone has a AV 7.
Claw in LRB4 was the bane of all AV 7 teams, they had a AV 5 w/MB or AV 6 with out....give me LRB 4 Claw any day of the week.
Posted by BooAhl on 2011-10-26 21:35:08
MB didn't stack with Claw in Lrb4 on AV roles. That is a gain vs av9. Pretty big one since you break av on more than 50% with claw and mb now.
Posted by freak_in_a_frock on 2011-10-26 22:34:40
Yeah, I remember the good old days before claw pombs. Back then the box was filled with a huge variety teams....
Posted by blader4411 on 2011-10-26 22:47:59
@freak: Love the sarcasm :-)
Anyway, this blog can be summed up in one sentence.
"I miss the days when the box was Orc and Dwarf Only."
Because that's all the Box had in LRB4, and for a while it died. Now we see ClawPOMBs, Norse, Amazons, various Undead teams, Elves,and even the occasional Stunty.
Box is better than it ever was, maybe it's time to try out a new team?
-Blader
Anyway, this blog can be summed up in one sentence.
"I miss the days when the box was Orc and Dwarf Only."
Because that's all the Box had in LRB4, and for a while it died. Now we see ClawPOMBs, Norse, Amazons, various Undead teams, Elves,and even the occasional Stunty.
Box is better than it ever was, maybe it's time to try out a new team?
-Blader
Posted by koadah on 2011-10-26 23:26:51
Oi oi, don't exaggerate. It was never orc & dwarf only. There were always plenty of killer khems.
Posted by PyrionFlax on 2011-10-26 23:31:44
@blader So if it had just orcs and dwarves before, how has it improved now by mostly having chaos and chaos dwarves? At low TVs you might have a variety but once you pass 1500 tv, you will mostly meet clawpomb teams.
@everyone else
yeah, piling on is bad but mainly because fouling isn't really worth it any more. The biggest problem I have with PO is that there's very little downside, for a MASSIVE upside.
@everyone else
yeah, piling on is bad but mainly because fouling isn't really worth it any more. The biggest problem I have with PO is that there's very little downside, for a MASSIVE upside.
Posted by koadah on 2011-10-27 00:03:08
Most of your games appear to be dwarves, orcs and chaos. And you're the one complaining?
Posted by harvestmouse on 2011-10-27 00:31:38
Awwww I thought I'd be the smart one and point that out :(
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2011-10-27 00:54:32
Translation - WAAA WAAAA plz dont kill my orcs and dwarfs WAA WAAAAAA
Posted by ahalfling on 2011-10-27 02:12:59
So Claw is overpowered because... it can be used in conjunction with another, better skill? (Or, indeed, two such skills?)
Complaint noted.
Complaint noted.
Posted by lizvis on 2011-10-27 02:59:46
everyone who rated this a 1 just doesn't want to admit that they DO in fact sound that dumb.
Posted by Corvidius on 2011-10-27 05:07:53
ZOMG a bash skill that's good against other bashers rather than at killing elves, however will the world cope with such a travesty. :P
Posted by rokash on 2011-10-27 08:38:43
If anything, Claw is less 'dumb' now than it used to be. Now it is at least a situational tool. To be used against high AV, and not a -2AV on absolutely everything.
Maybe Claw is too good now since it is a normal skill pick. But I doubt it, since MB is a better skill on anything with less than 9 AV. It is a bigger problem that Claw and MB stacks. And even more so with PO.
Maybe Claw is too good now since it is a normal skill pick. But I doubt it, since MB is a better skill on anything with less than 9 AV. It is a bigger problem that Claw and MB stacks. And even more so with PO.
Posted by Melech on 2011-10-27 14:13:03
then change Claw to a -1AV modifier, like MB.
It`s simply ridiculous that players with a Claw mutation can rip a chaos warrior`s armor into pieces, but doesn`t make a difference on elves.
There should be at least some sort of logic within skills.
AND PLEASE : get rid of piling on in combination with modifiers. And restrict it to Big Guys who are heavy enough to really pile on.
It`s simply ridiculous that players with a Claw mutation can rip a chaos warrior`s armor into pieces, but doesn`t make a difference on elves.
There should be at least some sort of logic within skills.
AND PLEASE : get rid of piling on in combination with modifiers. And restrict it to Big Guys who are heavy enough to really pile on.
Posted by koadah on 2011-10-27 14:26:34
If you were so worried about elves you'd take tackle/MB.
As you rarely need to worry about elves in the box you can go straight to MB/claw.
Though you'd probably get smoked in the Majors. ;)
As you rarely need to worry about elves in the box you can go straight to MB/claw.
Though you'd probably get smoked in the Majors. ;)
Posted by PyrionFlax on 2011-10-27 20:31:06
As people point out, most of my teams are bashy. Well, if you're playing in the Box with it being the way it is, what else are you going to play as? My point is that the variety, especially at 1500+ tv, isn't there because once you bump into a clawpomb team, you lose so much tv that you cannot break that ceiling unless you are really, really lucky or insanely good. And that's a limiting factor either way you look at it.
MB is only a +1 to armour break. It's very, very useful for sure, but it can ALSO be taken by any team. I've had plenty of players MB-ed out of the game by elves and so on. But it's only against the clawpomb teams that I've had sides retired with regularity. It doesn't even require any skill - you just block, pile on, and grind your way to a win. Is that really what people want from BB?
Without Claw, Chaos teams bumping into Elves, for instance, will find that they'll need to be taking tackle and strip ball and skills like that or they'll lose matches. As it is, they can take clawpomb and take out all the linemen and then just grind through the positionals who are then forced to stand on the line.
MB is only a +1 to armour break. It's very, very useful for sure, but it can ALSO be taken by any team. I've had plenty of players MB-ed out of the game by elves and so on. But it's only against the clawpomb teams that I've had sides retired with regularity. It doesn't even require any skill - you just block, pile on, and grind your way to a win. Is that really what people want from BB?
Without Claw, Chaos teams bumping into Elves, for instance, will find that they'll need to be taking tackle and strip ball and skills like that or they'll lose matches. As it is, they can take clawpomb and take out all the linemen and then just grind through the positionals who are then forced to stand on the line.
Posted by koadah on 2011-10-27 22:06:17
But if claw is the problem then you may as well use AV7 teams and stuff those teams bloated with all that useless claw TV. ;)
As most of the teams can get POMB it's all fair eh? ;)
As most of the teams can get POMB it's all fair eh? ;)
Posted by PyrionFlax on 2011-10-28 10:59:57
That "useless" tv isn't so useless really. The proliferation of clawpomb means that elves are just as vulnerable as everyone else. More so since they're armour 7 against the whole team, not just guys with claw. And for a +20k skill it's not a lot of bloat to worry about.
As people have said, claw on it's own is not as big a problem as I make out although I do still think it's a badly broken skill because it's not evenly distributed. The bigger problem is it being used in combination with piling-on and mighty blow. That's the main issue.
As people have said, claw on it's own is not as big a problem as I make out although I do still think it's a badly broken skill because it's not evenly distributed. The bigger problem is it being used in combination with piling-on and mighty blow. That's the main issue.