| Poll |
| Do you think that timeout: |
| Should be always called without any warning |
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13% |
[ 24 ] |
| Should be always called but never the first time (1 warning max) |
|
17% |
[ 31 ] |
| Should be called only if happen too often in a game |
|
40% |
[ 72 ] |
| Should be never called |
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11% |
[ 20 ] |
| Each coach should agree before the match how to manage the timeout csll |
|
8% |
[ 15 ] |
| Pie!!!! |
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10% |
[ 18 ] |
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| Total Votes : 180 |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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 Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 14:35 |
 
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| koadah wrote: |
It is not realistic to expect everyone to just "be nice" unless enforced rules require them to be. |
I agree with you that expecially in the BlackBox you cannot expect to have always nice people that give you all the time you need. Is totally understandable. For this a sort of "timeout netiquette" should be done. Nothing is mentioned in the site rule, https://fumbbl.com/p/help?op=rules, and maybe a sort of "general suggestions" would avoid a lot of unnecessary discussions or bad surprises.
The first point to fix is that , yes, I think the majority of the people playing to FUMBBL agree on the fact that thee is a need to fix a timelimit. Not sure this poll is quite representative but only 4% thinks that there should be no any time constraints. So this point is acquired.
There is also a slight majority (51%) which thinks that timeout should be regulated in the sense that is a good manners to warn before calling (and I say: warn should be fair: if you warn your opponent 3 seconds before the timeout and then you press the button this is not a warn for me).
The best for me is that one coach make clear from the beginning what he want to do in absence of timeout regulations. Some like MattDakka clearly write in their "about" (but don't expect all player read your bio before playing with you... so better to be explicit in my opinion),
Clearly you must have some hair on your chest to start a match and tell your opponent 'look I'm warning you that I'm calling a timeout at four minutes'... not really the best way to start.
That's why maybe if in the site rule is mentioned something this would avoid discussions... and bad surprises: something like (just a proposal )
- everyone has the right to call timeout even without warning: beware this can happen much more often in competitive divisions
- if the two coaches wish they can decide in advance before the match on the timeout rule, but once decided they CANNOT change the rule during the game (the log chat become a sort of "notarial deed" valid for the match)
- it is suggested to give a warning after the first timeout (which can be granted) but it is not mandatory.
- The warning should be sent at least 1 minute before time expires : if you give the warning just some seconds before time is up, it is good manners to let the shift end without calling timeout)
- you cannot call timeout if your opponent asks for timeout for external reasons (bio break, technical problems, other personal problems)
- If you have the impression that your opponent loses time on purpose call an admin....
Only the last two recommendations are stated in the site rules. |
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dementor42
Joined: Oct 27, 2017
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 14:53 |
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If I'm rushed for time, I tell my opponent that I would like them to play 4 minute turns. Otherwise, it's a game that we're both trying to enjoy in our free time - who cares if it drags on a little? |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 14:53 |
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What has also been proposed by others in this thread is that one simply assumes that every single opponent you have will expect you to keep to 4 minutes and timeout when you exceed that limitation. With allowances made for going afk, being inexperienced or client problems at the discretion of the coach.
Which, by and large, is the intention of having a 4 minute limitation with the application of the terminus being non-automated.
Is this entirely satisfactory for all? No, but I don't believe any consensus that suits the majority use cases is really ever satisfactory for all individuals. That is a philosophical design quandary that applies to far more than this single problem. |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 15:09 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | The 4 minutes time limit was introduced in BB 3rd edition, 1995. |
Ok so after the edition I have
I have under my eyes the 1994 Blood Bowl HANDBOOK (Product Code 0281, (C) Copiright Games & Workshop Ltd. 1994)
and
DEATHZONE (Product code 0208, (C) G&W 1994) and I don't find any mention on the timeout ... maybe is hidden in some chapter i missed... but never found. Probably it has been mentioned later.
in Official Rules BB2020 (C) 2020 and Design Commentary nothing is mentioned
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/d4EGmrdz0lylahgt.pdf
I got this guide too https://www.games-workshop.com/en-DK/blood-bowl-matched-play-guide-2022-eng and it is only mentioned in page 8 that..
"for tournament games, we recomment setting a time limit of 2 hours and 30 minutes. This should provide plenty of time to finish the game and coaches are expected to play at a decent pace to ensure the game reaches a natural conclusion..."
That's all
Naturally 2h30 for an on line game is too much we all agree... because all the time needed to roll dices, take the point, the score, calculate the post matches sequences is done automatically by the client. But in alternative it can be said that for a online match a max of 1h30 is possible (+30 mins in case of extra time), and 45 mins without any turn limit constraints. After 45 mins the turn should be 2 mins max with the hard stop at 1h30. But as mentioned by s.o what is there is bug in the network and your opponent drop and client do not record the time? It is alwyas triccky to manage this in on line games.
So i think the best option is what we have today, with the 4 mins timeout button and a sort of gentlemen agreement before the starting of the match. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 15:19 |
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| RDaneel wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | | The 4 minutes time limit was introduced in BB 3rd edition, 1995. |
Ok so after the edition I have
I have under my eyes the 1994 Blood Bowl HANDBOOK (Product Code 0281, (C) Copiright Games & Workshop Ltd. 1994) |
Exactly that. Check page 7 of that Handbook:
TURNOVERS
(list of turnover events, check the number 6)
6. The four minute time limit for the turn runs out.
A coach who suffers a turnover must end his turn immediately - even if part way through a player's action.[...]
The 3rd edition year was 1994, not 1995 (it's because I bought the game in 1995 and my memory recalled that event, sorry  ). Considering that the 4 minute time limit was made for the tabletop version, requiring more time to work out dice rolls, calculate the modifiers, check the tables etc. a 4 minute time limit for the online game is not that harsh. Also, the rule even states that the turn must end immediately, interrupting a player's action if required. It's very strict.
As an aside, the turnover rule (not just the time out, I mean, the turnover as general BB rule) was introduced in 3rd edition, with the purpose (along other ones) of speeding up the game. You can read that on page 48 of the Handbook, "DESIGNER's NOTES".
About being nice: do you get upset if you try a -2d uphill block and your opponent chooses Skull rather than Pow? Do you get upset if your opponent decides to use his Diving Tackle/Stand Firm/Side Step etc.?
He could be nice and choose not to use them, by the same reasoning. It's reasonable that your opponent tries to win with any legal means allowed by the game and site rules.
| RDaneel wrote: | | Clearly you must have some hair on your chest to start a match and tell your opponent 'look I'm warning you that I'm calling a timeout at four minutes'... not really the best way to start. |
According to my experience, threatening or just informing you time out suddenly makes people react bad. They could even start to grief you by not choosing to use Stand Firm, not kicking the ball, leaving the game etc.
You can call an admin but that means disturbing them and generally wasting time, while an automatic time out would make the game faster and smoother. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %13, %2023 - %15:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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BeanBelly
Joined: Nov 14, 2019
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 15:46 |
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I timed someone out with no warning once in my first Major, first round. I was very new to FUMBBL, they were upset and from that experience I realised it was polite/usual to at very least give a warning.
I can only recall only one coach who timed me out with no warning (securing them the win) on the one single turn in our 19 black box games where I'd gone over 4mins. That was unsporting from someone I'd played quite a bit, and will no doubt play again in future. |
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Painting myself into a corner |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 15:50 |
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Instead I remember a coach hiring a Wizard and Bomber as overdog whenever possible. That was unsporting as well. You could have met that coach, you got lucky facing a guy just timing you out. |
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Tripleskull
Joined: Oct 12, 2003
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 15:57 |
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There is a discrepancy between how people mainly experienced in tournament (NAF style) play and players mainly coming from various online platforms.
Hardly any tournaments use any kind of strict time rules, so to a players coming from this environment TO is basically rude, under most circumstances, on the other hand working with a strict time limit is the natural way to play an online game.
Fumbbl on a chess clock would be great |
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Waiting4Mish
Joined: Jun 13, 2022
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 15:59 |
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| Spence wrote: |
You can up your chances of winning by exceeding the time limit and taking more time than your opponent. People keep trying to justify making decisions that benefit themselves.
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I think you're missing the nuance. I'm not actually talking on behalf of myself taking extra time whereas you are talking from the point of view of the person pressing timeout. The decision to not timeout does not benefit me.
The player taking the turn risks being timed out if they take more than 4 mins. The chances are that they don't do that on purpose. Often when people take more than 4 mins they write a message AFTER to explain why because writing before that takes up more time (e.g. sorry my kid just walked into the room).
The coaches taking more than 4 mins are skewed towards new or inexperienced coaches or people with other commitments or circumstances and coaches with more complex teams or trying to do something out of the ordinary. By taking more than 4 minutes they leave themselves open to being timed out which clearly reduces their chances of winning, it could literally end the game. Your control over how long a turn takes is also affected by numerous factors. For example I've had people with 3 players on the pitch complain at me taking 2 mins to finish a turn when every one of my players has moves to make while their turns take seconds to make. Other times something you expect to work doesn't (e.g. a three dice block) and you have to improvise your strategy.
You don't know the cause of taking more than four minutes in the majority of cases (if someone keeps having phonecalls or some other interruption then this changes).
So the person taking the turn does not have one single simple decision about how long to take, they have a multitude of complex decisions to make and going beyond 4 mins could be an absolute disaster and is not entirely in their control. Doing one extra thing could go well or poorly depending on the dice and being timed out at the worst moment could go disastrously. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think any player has thought, I'm going to take 15 minutes to think about this puzzle to gain an advantage.
The person pressing timeout does not have a complex decision to make. They press the button and gain something or they don't press it and don't gain an advantage. Some coaches do it every time and the reason they do that is because it gives them an advantage. Regardless of their claims, they know they are gaining an advantage by doing it and that clearly has an influence. Those coaches could give a bit more leeway to new or less-experienced coaches at a bare minimum. They choose not to. The complete lack of nuance betrays the intention behind the action. They can timeout but if they try and pretend it's for other reasons others can call out their bs.
I'm not saying allow every player to go over the limit on every turn but ultimately you get to choose whether your opponent enjoys the puzzle as Murker put it or you choose to take advantage. At a fundamental level we're talking about people whose main(only?) enjoyment is based on victory and how is the experience is for that individual personally versus people who see that their enjoyment of the game is a mutual experience with some kind of social agreement whereby you both try to have a fun and challenging game together. The former can only have fun because the latter exist (and form the majority).
I think you have to be particularly mean-spirited to claim that someone who beat you gets an asterisk next to their victory because they took a few extra seconds a couple of turns. Every blood bowl victory would have an asterisk of some kind if that's how low the bar is. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 16:06 |
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I guess not enforcing time out in TT tournaments could be just due to practical reasons, i.e. needing to have somebody enforcing the time out, a referee for each table. Online enforcing automatic time out is easy, but one of the reasons why time out is not enforced on FUMBBL it's because many users could not play the game with the automatic time limit (due to work, family, kids, not big enough time windows).
This is one reason, if I'm not wrong, take it with a pinch of salt, I'm not an admin. On the other hand, Cyanide game has many users and uses an automatic time out.
Mind, I'm not criticizing FUMBBL, it's the best way to play BB, just that, in my humble opinion, an automatic time out could work on FUMBBL as well (in Competitive division, in League division there could be time limit option, instead). Once every coach expects the time out there is less disappointment, frustration and rage. In Cyanide nobody complained about time running out. I found some griefers stopping playing when losing, but with 2 minute timer that was a minor issue. |
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knightsweats
Joined: Mar 11, 2013
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 16:22 |
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| RDaneel wrote: | | Jan-Erik wrote: | | The turn timer is already excessively lenient, 2 minutes is more than enough you need to complete any turn. If you go over, your turn ends. |
I find myself compelled to disagree here. Often the turn can be completed in 2 minutes, expecially in the very beginning, but especially in the final turns of the drive it is sometimes necessary to spend more time and sometime more than 4 mins (little bit more...) |
For this reason I think there should be two clocks. A 3 minute turn clock and another 5 minutes time bank. (Open to opinions on the precise numbers). But the idea is that most turns can be done in under 3 minutes, fine. If any turn goes over 3 then you start to run down your bank of 5 minutes. If you run out of the 5 minutes the client automagically times out. |
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C0ddlefish
Joined: Sep 17, 2019
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 16:22 |
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Someone timed out my Goblins without warning last night (whole half took less than 30mins for both our 8 turns).
I paid them back by dicing the life of them |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 16:31 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | RDaneel wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | | The 4 minutes time limit was introduced in BB 3rd edition, 1995. |
Ok so after the edition I have
I have under my eyes the 1994 Blood Bowl HANDBOOK (Product Code 0281, (C) Copiright Games & Workshop Ltd. 1994) |
Exactly that. Check page 7 of that Handbook:
TURNOVERS
(list of turnover events, check the number 6)
6. The four minute time limit for the turn runs out.
A coach who suffers a turnover must end his turn immediately - even if part way through a player's action.[...]
The 3rd edition year was 1994, not 1995 |
Ah right!
I had always missed point six! OK clear. In the new rules they removed it in fact |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 16:50 |
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The Fantasy Football clients used the 4 minute time limit because of that 3rd edition rule.
The client we use now keeps the 4 minute time limit like a sort of "legacy", although there is no time limit in BB2020 rules.
On the other hand, there must be a time limit, so, since the old client used 4 minutes, that time limit was kept in the BB2020 client.
I could be wrong, but it should be quite accurate. I'm not a developer, so, don't take my words as Gospel.
That said, on FUMBBL, what is decided by Christer is the official rule. So, in the end, it doesn't matter if there is no time limit in BB2020. It's indeed useful and right to say that in BB2020 there is no time limit, for purpose of debate, but, from the practical gaming point of view, on this site you must play by the FUMBBL rules.
To be constructive: I agree that an official rule about time out procedure written here:
https://fumbbl.com/p/help?op=rules
would inform people that they can be timed out without prior warning. |
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Tripleskull
Joined: Oct 12, 2003
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 17:08 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | I guess not enforcing time out in TT tournaments could be just due to practical reasons, i.e. needing to have somebody enforcing the time out, a referee for each table. |
I am quite sure it is down to the social aspect of the game, and the gentleman fashion the game in played. When I entered the international scene in 2006, I was actually used to playing TT on a time limit. And I was quite surprised to find no time limits used. Over the years I have come to like it, but I think there is a place for chess clocks in TT games, and they are actually easily implementable. 4min turns are however a nightmare, partly because they can actually make the games extremely long, and how do you stop a game if the time limit has been kept for all turns?
Solely relying on the 2.25 or 2.5 hour limit in TT is not without problems, but it actually works surprisingly well. |
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