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Poll
Will bb2020 changes make you retire from fumbbl?
Never, fumbbl 4eva!
75%
 75%  [ 274 ]
Completely retire
1%
 1%  [ 6 ]
Retire except still do league
8%
 8%  [ 30 ]
Retire except still do some tournaments
0%
 0%  [ 2 ]
Undecided
14%
 14%  [ 52 ]
Total Votes : 364


Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 17:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
While I respect the opinions of others, I struggle to sympathise with the idea that the game has changed so much that you’d bin the hobby off.


How about resentfully keeping at it then? Razz
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 17:38 Reply with quote Back to top

"Not playing the new rules" is not the same thing as "binning off the hobby" Mr. Green

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[SL] Old World Rumbble - Brand new teams only - ALWAYS recruiting
Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 20:48 Reply with quote Back to top

I put undecided.
While I do agree that play over 200TV gets quite silly, 135TV cutoff (as I understand it) feels way too low for me to enjoy any kind of team building.

My hope is that the rebuy process will be adjusted if it leads to a meta that is all strong starter teams with a few skills, cause that sounds dull.

I will ofc. wait and see how the new rules pan out in practice.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 21:28 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
ClayInfinity wrote:

Most people wouldnt run one thrower, let alone two. HE's maybe.. the other elf types no.

I don't know in BB2020, but in BB2016 and CRP even minmaxers used 1 Thrower, if not to actually pass, as Leader caddy.
Elven Union Thrower is a bargain.


Elven Union is a team I am thinking of trying out two throwers on. They can still do a 2+ pass for quick skill progression. I doubt they will be taking any passing skills but that is a different conversation.


Purplegoo wrote:
Games played on site while the old rules were in place were in a state of pretty depressing decline. They picked up when the new rules arrived.

When I first found this site and it was still LRB4 I did not bother joining not wanting to play two rule sets.

Purplegoo wrote:
There’s some stuff I like, there’s some stuff I don’t, but at it’s core, it’s still Blood Bowl.
I think that is a great point. Many of us have played a lot of different rule sets for this game over the years. Each edition has added some good and some bad. It is still going to be a fun game.
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 23:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Team building: I think it still exists, it just looks very different.

The only experience I have of this is the SWL, so I'll lean on that: 7 game seasons, so arguably less time to build than the 15 in Fumbbl. You get interesting things like these orcs: https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&team_id=902837

There's one absolute monster, Impak, and the rest of the team around him adds up to a total of 1160. Now, WTR is different (at 95 games, Impak would be suffering 120k of WTR, Vs the 90k he suffers in our 2016 rebuy), but it's not clear how significant that is.

Similarly, my own team would be too fat to survive in the standard 1350 rebuy, https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=953416 but I think I could hang on to Pongy Baconbroth for a few seasons.

My point is that if you are hoping that team building gets you to perfection for that team (tools to handle every situation, maximise what the team does best) then the new rules aren't going to satisfy you, for a lot of races. That's a shame. You can solve it with specific league rules, but then you sacrifice the number of games you can play.

If the goal of team building is to develop one or two great players, a drop to 1350 might be tolerable every 15 games. Maybe you take a hit and lose rerolls and apo for a few games and hold onto a stronger bench.

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argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 16, 2021 - 01:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Fumbbl is great and I will never stop thanks Christer & C. to have develope this application. Sometimes I donate and I will continue to do in future because they deserve this.

But the rules of BB need to be improved to make this game more "balanced". The BB2020 ruleset do not improve the rules in this sense. on the contrary give unnecessary advantages to some team with respect the others for instance. Introduce some questionable rules on the pass and ball handling. Still some questionable events are too much linked to the dices and not to the agility of a player to play this game.

Something has been done in bb2020 to mitigate such effect (f-i reducing the power of the Blitz and the Pitch Invasion in the kick off table) but on the other side it has been introduced other aspects which are questionable (otherwise you will not have so many discussion in the forum on the ruleset change)

Every change cause discussion. So change is appreciated. This is the reason I think BB2020 will be just a first start of new change and I hope ruleset corrections will be published soon to make this game still funny but not totally crazy Wink

So ... for me this is not the end but the beginning.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 16, 2021 - 01:36 Reply with quote Back to top

The Blood Bowl Second Season Edition ruleset might actually make me retire from FUMBBL. I will probably switch to Blood Bowl 3 to be on the new ruleset when it comes out on Steam, at least while FUMBBL remains on the old obsolete rules. Hopefully the change for FUMBBL comes soon enough though that it won't come to that.

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Doofr



Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 16, 2021 - 06:39 Reply with quote Back to top

What will be interesting is not the number of coaches retiring but the number of games played oustide L division....though with the covid crisis we will have to wait to see the real numbers...but im prety sure the numbers will go down after the phase of discovery..

Me i will stick to leagues only who use the old skill selection at least.

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Uber



Joined: Mar 22, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 16, 2021 - 07:55 Reply with quote Back to top

It takes a special effort to come up with rules that make ageing look good, but they did it.

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Alien_the_Alien



Joined: Apr 22, 2020

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 20:15 Reply with quote Back to top

I think that the potentiality of the end of the pandemic and the release of Blood Bowl 3 are much bigger "threats" to the popularity of FUMBBL than the new rules.
Some grognards who hate the new rules will quickly find themselves very isolated and either stop playing completely or move on. We must also take into account that GW plans to release regular updates to the rules, meaning that things such as the wildly inaccurate rules could evolve. Of course it doesn't mean that we can't be frustrated by some changes, but still, BB2020 brings new things and it's nice to have something fresh that doesn't consist in just a few changes or fan-made teams.

Why BB3 is a threat is obvious - though it's a very long-term threat, because FUMBBL will have more teams and more rules much sooner. However, BB3 will come with more customization, and who knows what kind of new options? In any case, BB3 will be much more accessible than FUMBBL for new coaches.

Why the end of the pandemic is slightly more complex: I know a lot of coaches like myself who basically started playing FUMBBL due to a combination of having much more free time, and the inability to play tournaments IRL. FUMBBL had a surge in new accounts and matches during the first monthes of COVID-19. My own league stopped being active on FUMBBL once we had a bit more freedom, and most coaches stopped playing on FUMBBL completely.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 20:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Alien_the_Alien wrote:
...
FUMBBL had a surge in new accounts and matches during the first monthes of COVID-19. My own league stopped being active on FUMBBL once we had a bit more freedom, and most coaches stopped playing on FUMBBL completely.


It was a massive surge. So why didn't those people stick?

Edit: Though I see that some didn't even try R or B. R & B games are still higher than pre lockdown though.

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Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 21:26 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Edit: Though I see that some didn't even try R or B. R & B games are still higher than pre lockdown though.

May depend where you live. Lockdown is still going on for some of us.

BB3 vs FUMBBL may depend on what options there are. Given Champions Ladder makes you start a new team every six weeks I prefered FUMBBL for the occasional game. Sure new rules means your team has less development available with only 15 games but you can spread that out over months if you do not have the time to play regularly.
Doofr



Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 23:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Alien_the_Alien wrote:
I think that the potentiality of the end of the pandemic and the release of Blood Bowl 3 are much bigger "threats" to the popularity of FUMBBL than the new rules.


There were BB2 and fumbbl was well alive before the pandemic.

Thats why when i talk to compare the number of games played, i want to compare the games played before covid and when thee covid things will end if it ends.

And you will be able to see , if the new rules make people playing more games or not.

Because most of the people i see here saying they like the new rules and will continue to play on fumbbl, are not realy coaches playings a lot of games and almost all coaches who are saying they will stop o are thinking about stoping were playing lot of games.

But we will see, i hope for fumbbl that im wrong . Wink

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DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 23:44 Reply with quote Back to top

I’ve played since 1st edition, and seen a lot of rules changes over the years. Whenever it happens, some folks don’t like it of course, but I have to say this time it feels very different. The changes are just too big, unbalanced and ill-considered this time in my opinion. I'm going to summarise what I see as all the big problems here, so hopefully folks can see them all in one place, and we don't get piecemeal debate which isn't so helpful. Basically, I believe the following new game mechanics are just awful because:

1) The nerf to passing. I actually got excited when I heard they were looking at passing, because it’s rarely the best option at present even for elfs. So when I learnt they have actually made it WORSE, I couldn’t believe it. Why on Earth would you do that?;

2) The changes to leaping, or jumping now are awful. Firstly, those who think it’s great that all players can jump now are deceiving themselves I feel, because even an elf will only be able to leap on a 3+ at best, worse with tackle zones. You think that’s good? Look at how many slann teams try a succession of 3+ leaps by linemen. No good ones – it’s a very low percentage play! (Oh and we’re about to lose slann too Sad);

3) Secondly on jumping, getting into a cage is now much worse. Even an elf will only be able to leap into a tight cage on a 5 now, or 4 with leap. Once in a cage it is then probably a - 2d block on the ballcarrier due to guard. Those are much worse odds than before, and it was well balanced before so why change it? In fact those odds are so bad now, it probably isn't even worth trying;

4) If you look at the ‘bash’ equivalent for breaking into cages – Break Tackle on mummies, saurus, big guys etc, that has been similarly nerfed;

5) Even if a player somehow, miraculously gets into a cage and spills the ball, it will be very difficult to recover because i) again jumping is much worse for a retriever trying to get to the ball, ii) even if he picks it up, passing is much worse for the retriever trying to get it away, and perhaps most worryingly of all iii) the ballcarrier may well have this stupid new skill Safe Pair of Hands, so they can choose where to spill the ball. That is totally broken. It is bad enough that the odds of breaking into a cage and spilling the ball are so low now, but the ballcarrier can choose to just stick the ball in the middle of a cage with two or three tackle zones? And avoid ANY chance of it going in to the crowd if near the sidelines? TOTALLY BROKEN – the chances of a turnover become minimal, so much so that dynamic defence is probably not even worth trying any more;

6) The fouling changes are terrible too, I don’t like the mechanic of foulers being able to foul and then run away again behind a screen, although maybe that's more of a personal call. It just seems there is little skill in that, and it introduces just a dicey race on attrition;

7) Forcing teams to repeatedly cut to 1350TV every 15 games. It seems like they wanted to introduce some 'team management' angle here, but if so they have failed badly. All it will do is create a bunch of boring min-max sides – coaches will be able to afford i) a killer, ii) a ballhandler and, well not much else really. Teams within and even between races will begin to look very similar. Boring!;

8 ) The strict cutting to 1350TV on FUMBBL kills many of the big teams and stops most team development. Having to sack over ¾ of an old, historied team, and effectively never get to rebuild it to anything particularly interesting just isn’t fun (no more legend goblins Sad Or many legend positions at all for that matter other than killers and ballcarriers!). Some higher TV threshold could have worked well (and made Majors on here much more of a level playing field for part-time/new coaches too – mega high TV Chaos and statfreak elf sides will not dominate so much at least), but 1350TV is just way too low;

9) I think they have gone too far now in the crusade against Claw. The old ClawPOMB probably was a bit too powerful, but removing Piling On struck a good balance. Now removing the stacking of Claw and Mighty Blow goes too far, and Chaos and Nurgle look rubbish in the new ruleset – they no longer really have a weapon, and will never develop into a decent team at 1350TV. And I’m an agility coach saying that – have created/played very few Chaos teams.

10) They have axed loads of the Star Players. Ok some were a bit ropey, but why? Where is the fun in that? They have just undone a lot of the good work in Spikes that introduced some well designed Stars;

11) Some races have been unnecessarily nerfed, while dwarfs - who were already arguably far too good at low TV - will suit this new anti-passing, cage-friendly, low TV, fouling ruleset even better - have hardly been nerfed at all other than a couple of +5TV tweaks. The Deathroller even has Dirty Player +2. This just looks ridiculous, and could lead to a swarm of dwarf sides which will be a bit dull, even if you are a dwarf coach (and to a lesser extent other bash sides like chaos dwarfs, orcs and black orcs will be too common?);

12) Some of the stat increase prices are just stupid. +80TV for + Str? That is just daft - it will NEVER be worthwhile with the new low TVs (probably not even at high TVs if that was even an option!). They might as well have just banned the stat increase!

There are a few good tweaks I will admit, like nerfing some of the overly powerful kick-off events like Blitz, no more easy MA 10 one-turners, and counters to stalling. But the problems above massively outweigh those for me, especially 1-5 above. And 1-5 are mathematical problems, so I really don't buy the ‘test it and see’ argument – I’m sorry but they really do stink. Blood Bowl in the current edition is a great game because there are many different strategies, and it is well balanced between the bash and agility sides. There are so many different events that a game is almost a story unfolding before your eyes, you can try to control it with sound strategy but still don’t really know what will happen. That is about to change – passing and dynamic defence (with leaps and break tackles into cages) will almost disappear, mathematically they become so bad that they are probably not even worth trying.

So we are left with ‘Dwarf Bowl’ – a few bash teams such as dwarfs will dominate I fear, and it will just be big grinding melees between very similar sides, hefty fouling, or for agility sides passive defence just trying to back off and prevent a score/ running like hell when they do have the ball. In a way I’m heartened that a lot of coaches on this poll have voted that they will continue, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. But I do wonder how many games will get played when this shonky ruleset kicks in, coaches discover it is less interesting than the old game and more and more of a grind? We will see…

For myself I will plug on mostly with League for a while, but I wonder if I will finally quit FUMBBL after so many years, because the game will become far more one-dimensional. It will still be a decent game, but not a great one any more that you want to play several times a week. I think I will play on with NAF tabletop seeing as they will be giving tournament organisers the option of playing with the old rules, and still running ranks with those too (and how telling that decision is! Hardly a vote of confidence in the new ruleset). I only hope the drunk dwarfs at GW realise what they have done soon, and correct what I believe are some very serious mistakes with some big rules changes.
Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 04:30 Reply with quote Back to top

I won't be retiring from FUMBBL but there are some teams I'll likely put on the backburner now than what I did before. I used to flip flop from different teams while mainly focusing on 2-3 main ones. Now however I think I will be hyper focused on just two with maybe a third in the background. The redraft rules, as presented in BB2020, radically changes the dynamic of many teams. For some this has hurt more than it's helped, like poor Nurgle. Others it has hurt but also has changed their dynamic significantly while keeping them still playable like Chaos Chosen. With Chaos Chosen this has offered new challenges and a "fresh" meta. They still play the same but now t here will be a more challenging, managerial element to their development which I will enjoy.

Goblins I used to play religiously but now, with the removal of their stars and their meta not really changing much at all due to their cheapness, will take a back burner. Still love them but nice to keep things fresh. Humans will wrestle with Chaos as my new focus, as Humans have not changed much at all and still maintain their strength of versatility while simultaneously benefiting from redraft being in their best TV bracket.

I think I may play less though in the new Ranked/Box as I personally would like to play as close to the actual rules as possible so I may focus more on League. BB3 too, while providing a limited team variance, will also ideally be implementing the rules as written with more customization and 3d graphics, on top of being on the Switch so that may take some of my time away.

Overall though I am optimistic about the new rules of BB2020. Initially I felt that the dynamic would be far too gone, but now after actually taking time to process it, I am excited to try Chaos Chosen's new meta, roster and see how well they can do in a new challenging environment.
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