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Poll
Will bb2020 changes make you retire from fumbbl?
Never, fumbbl 4eva!
75%
 75%  [ 274 ]
Completely retire
1%
 1%  [ 6 ]
Retire except still do league
8%
 8%  [ 30 ]
Retire except still do some tournaments
0%
 0%  [ 2 ]
Undecided
14%
 14%  [ 52 ]
Total Votes : 364


MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2021 - 09:33 Reply with quote Back to top

What's so bad about it being expensive to keep unskilled linemen during the rebuy, at least in Competititve? I mean, unless there's a fantastic bit of history around the bloke who's not achieved any SPP in 15 games, does it matter if Joe Lineman quits and you replace him with Jim Lineman?

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2021 - 10:32 Reply with quote Back to top

MrCushtie wrote:
What's so bad about it being expensive to keep unskilled linemen during the rebuy, at least in Competititve? I mean, unless there's a fantastic bit of history around the bloke who's not achieved any SPP in 15 games, does it matter if Joe Lineman quits and you replace him with Jim Lineman?


As a strategy game nothing. It really doesn't matter.

IT has been my favourite game for the last 15 years because to me it is more than just a strategy game.
It has fluffy/silly/role play elements.

It seems that the silliness is reduced with every new ruleset.
For me, the new ruleset takes a huge chunk out of the fluffinness/role play element of the game.

The new rules drop BB down my favourite games list. I'm struggling to find time to play it already. This aslo kills the inclination. At least to play the Competitive division(s).
I didn't play them much anyway. But at least they were there if I couldn't find a league game.

IMO the only advantage of the new rules is that teams in the Box draw will be more closely matchhed by TV.
For that, we're losing a dimension from the game.

Edit: Part of Fumbbl's problems stem from lack of coaches, compared to other big games. Maybe that is the thinking behind the 1350 cut. To make the Box draws easier.

Agents fees on an unskilled lino is just another brick in the wall.

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[SL] Old World Rumbble - Brand new teams only - ALWAYS recruiting
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2021 - 16:04 Reply with quote Back to top

While I agree that Agents Fees on 1 season players is .. bleh, seasons are NOT from BB2020. They are from BB2016.

So the big change the BB2020 rules bring are: new skill selection system (I like some of it, but dislike that you can't randomly roll different things. But I would have made completely different changes to what GW did, and this, for me, is still an improvement over the current system.) And the new passing system (it's bad. It's terrible. But .. passing was already so godawful that this FOR ME is like saying 'ok, in baseball, you are no longer allowed to wear swim goggles'. It might be a bad rule, but it simply won't affect me. And for those of you screaming wildly about not being allowed to blind yourself with swim goggles, I'm sorry I just have utterly no sympathy.)

Ignoring rosters, all the other changes (and there are a LOT of them) are good (or, in the case of way too many new skills that aren't really justified, would have been good with a better skill selection system that GW chose not to go with). Just little tweaks here and there all over the place that I enjoy a lot.

I'm very much looking forward to the on the pitch gameplay of the new rules.

I've already committed to seeing if I can get a 300 game skink under the new rules. (Although admittedly, the skink will die long before then ON THE PITCH)


And all of this, is as someone who HATES low TV play.
Randobot



Joined: Mar 04, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2021 - 16:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Sorry, so this 1350 TV is on fumbbl only right?
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2021 - 16:21 Reply with quote Back to top

that's the cap that's been chosen for our season yes (for ranked/box/competitive). the recommended in the book is 1300
Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2021 - 23:19 Reply with quote Back to top

MrCushtie wrote:
does it matter if Joe Lineman quits and you replace him with Jim Lineman?

Yes, because players AREN'T just Joe and Jim Lineman!

Nelphine wrote:
And the new passing system (it's bad. It's terrible. But .. passing was already so godawful that this FOR ME is like saying 'ok, in baseball, you are no longer allowed to wear swim goggles'. It might be a bad rule, but it simply won't affect me. And for those of you screaming wildly about not being allowed to blind yourself with swim goggles, I'm sorry I just have utterly no sympathy.)

You admit the new passing rules are terrible, but since you don't pass. to heck with those of us that do? That's like saying "I don't play X race, so I don't care if they completely screw them over." That attitude is self-centered and, more importantly, short sighted. Anything that makes coaches want to quit should be looked at extremely skeptically. Do you honestly think these rules will really lead to the growth of the game (long-term) after the initial excitement wears off? I'm very skeptical it will. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe the masses will love BloodRugby...
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2021 - 23:47 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the rest of the rules absolutely are a big improvement overall. I think they need to completely overhaul passing. While I don't see it now, it's entirely possible specialized passing players is the way to do that. I know wildly inaccurate is bad, but that is so bad that the rest of the changes get hidden. I can't say if the rest of the changes are actually bad, because I'm not a passing player.

However, those people who rely on passing are actively choosing to limit themselves in the current game. I accept that it's fun and enjoyable and meets what you want out of the game - but sacrificing your queen in chess is also fun and enjoyable for some players, and I give those players no sympathy if they complain that they are no longer allowed to sacrifice their queen.
Wozzaa



Joined: Apr 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 24, 2021 - 01:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Craftnburn wrote:

Nelphine wrote:
And the new passing system (it's bad. It's terrible. But .. passing was already so godawful that this FOR ME is like saying 'ok, in baseball, you are no longer allowed to wear swim goggles'. It might be a bad rule, but it simply won't affect me. And for those of you screaming wildly about not being allowed to blind yourself with swim goggles, I'm sorry I just have utterly no sympathy.)

You admit the new passing rules are terrible, but since you don't pass. to heck with those of us that do? That's like saying "I don't play X race, so I don't care if they completely screw them over." That attitude is self-centered and, more importantly, short sighted. Anything that makes coaches want to quit should be looked at extremely skeptically. Do you honestly think these rules will really lead to the growth of the game (long-term) after the initial excitement wears off? I'm very skeptical it will. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe the masses will love BloodRugby...


You're doing exactly what your accusing Nelphine of doing.

'I like to pass and play elf defense in one way, and despite people suggesting alternatives, that's how I like to play, so the new rules are crap. I'm out'

Re-read your comments in this thread. You are completely disregarding peoples advice and opinions in favour of your own, very narrow minded, opinion.

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Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 24, 2021 - 01:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
However, those people who rely on passing are actively choosing to limit themselves in the current game.

We're not talking about relying on the passing game...we're talking about having it as an option. The new passing rules are limiting choices, not the coaches...

Wozzaa wrote:
'I like to pass and play elf defense in one way, and despite people suggesting alternatives, that's how I like to play, so the new rules are crap. I'm out'

No, what I'm saying is that the new rules have removed the option to play a certain way. You're suggesting that I should just play differently...

Which one of us is trying to tell the other one how they should coach?...
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 24, 2021 - 05:59 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Do you like them?

For the most part yes.

  • PA 4+ on an average player is, for me, an improvement.
  • Kick Off, Weather table Improvements
  • Skill System that lets me get Block on Troll/Mummy without having to cycle through players.
  • Lots of clean up such as place prone vs knockdown
  • Chainsaw kickback no longer turnover
  • Star Players are better; and less of them.
  • Team Special Rules
  • Biased Ref
  • No more 2+ Lightning Bolt
  • Splitting Interception into deflection/catch.
  • Multiple TRR a turn
  • Piling On is gone; Claw nerf.


Nelphine wrote:
While I agree that Agents Fees on 1 season players is .. bleh, seasons are NOT from BB2020. They are from BB2016.

I think this is an important point. Agents fees are worse this edition but look back at Aging, Spiraling Expenses the game designers have always tried to find a way to limit team progression.

Turning the question on its head what do I actually dislike? I am on the fence about Leap/jumping changes which leaves

  • Wildly Inaccurate
  • Some Team Roster Changes
  • Redraft
  • PA - on some players


Wild is annoying but how often will it actually come up? 1/18 Short passes will be a "2-1" after a re-roll and then you need 3+ on the deviation for it to be worse than the old Fumble. We are down to about 4% and the fact you failed the pass is likely to be an issue no matter where the ball ends up.

I am not a fan of some Team Roster Changes. Fortunately there are over twenty teams in the game giving plenty of options to pick from. Necro and Nurgle are looking dead so time to start playing Humans and more Skaven.

Our local league already has a three season cap after which teams are banned. Redraft seems much more of an issue for online play than tabletop. BB2 CCL makes you reset to a new team every season and that has not stopped people playing. Sure there are some loop holes such as rehiring players with unspent SPP.

The actual system is quite nice. Coaches have to engage in resource management for the team. What I dislike is that fees are based on seasons played not player skill level. Replacing Jim Lineman with Bob Lineman is just an annoyance.

Most players in our tabletop league start new teams each season. How many teams actually play more than 50 games? Long term team building has been closed as a way of playing the game. That is a shame and may reduce the player base. Equally I know people that quit playing leagues in BB2 because they were fed up of being mauled by high value Chaos teams. The new rules may bring those players back.

It is a new age of the game. Maybe this will be like Fourth Edition and fizzle out quickly or maybe this is like Third Edition and the start of a stronger game. This edition has flaws but taken as a whole it looks to me as being improved.
Wozzaa



Joined: Apr 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 24, 2021 - 06:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Craftnburn wrote:
Wozzaa wrote:
'I like to pass and play elf defense in one way, and despite people suggesting alternatives, that's how I like to play, so the new rules are crap. I'm out'

No, what I'm saying is that the new rules have removed the option to play a certain way. You're suggesting that I should just play differently...

Which one of us is trying to tell the other one how they should coach?...


You can play how you like, as you've stated, the one way you play will be more difficult. People have suggested ways to mitigate this difficulty, but you have flat out rejected the suggestions. You can still play exactly the way you're playing now, but some of the rolls will be 4+ rather than 2+. And by some of the rolls... I mean one. The pass roll.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 24, 2021 - 12:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Lyracian wrote:

Necro and Nurgle are looking dead so time to start playing Humans and more Skaven.

Nurgle yes but Necro don't look bad. They are slightly better than current roster in my opinion.
Wolvassa



Joined: Dec 23, 2019

Post   Posted: Jan 24, 2021 - 13:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Removed from the question of if you like seasons or not, and if the story is about the team or the players, redraft fees on players with any progression at all is sort of required for the seasons to have the effect they aim for.

Where skills are likely to be distributed is one of the big changes, especially making it harder for non-postionals to develop (random MVP, lower SPP for MVP, passing stat nerf, harder to access specific skills that would aid progression). It all works to keep linemen in their place. If it costs me nothing to hold onto all of my 2/4SPP dwarf blockers, I'll very likely have a decent set of guard after a 6 game season, let alone a 15 game one like on Fumbbl.

The goal of the changes reads to me to make teams closer in power (I think all teams are weaker in some ways), and to keep the power curve of each team more predictable as they play games, so that over the course of typical 6ish player seasons, everyone will have fun games with a reasonable chance of winning throughout, and if there are subsequent seasons people can join or leave without it being miserable for newcomers. If this is the intent, and it makes sense for the boardgame, then the season rules read to me as a sensible part of the system.

I personally think that they also make a lot of sense, with some tweaks, for a competitive progression division with more players, like fumbbl. The price you pay is the story telling around specific players, but that is, to me, a small price to play in an environment that is focused on this as a tactical game. If I look at the past few tournament winners, there are some big stars with impressive records, but their story is mostly the story of the team on the pitch.

As cool as all of the big teams are, the fact that they exist means that I have never bothered playing much in box/ranked. I know I'd lose to a lot of coaches just on skill, but I don't have the patience or commitment to ever build a team that will be close to them in TV. I've watched a few of the big tournament games, but when the TV is that high it feels like a completely different game. Bloodbowl should be about managing risk vs reward, and at a certain TV you are able to eliminate to many of the risks in your own turn for me to find it as interesting.

I love story and rpg style progression, and league was and is still the best place to do that in fumbbl, but honestly, at no stage has this ever been the sort of game where you can reliably tell a story with your players. It always amused me how much shorter lived bloodbowlers are than Mordheim warbands, but maybe thats just me playing elves badly :p
Cyrus-Havoc



Joined: Sep 15, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 24, 2021 - 14:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Lyracian wrote:
?


[*]Chainsaw kickback no longer turnover.

Are you sure about that?

If a player on the active team is knocked down during their team turn, it's a turnover.

If the chainsaw fails to break their armour they are OK but surely that's how in is now?

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Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 24, 2021 - 15:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Cyrus-Havoc wrote:

Are you sure about that?
If the chainsaw fails to break their armour they are OK but surely that's how in is now?

Yes. Read the new FAQ. There is a difference between being placed prone and being knocked down. Goblin can kill himself with his chainsaw and it is not a turnover. It also makes Helmet Wulf a much better Star to take.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/NryQj9cL6rNK143Y.pdf

Q. If I roll a 1 when rolling to see if I can use a Chainsaw or Projectile Vomit, is a Turnover caused? (p.84 & 86)
A. No. The player is Placed Prone and an Injury roll made against them. They are not Knocked Down. It will only cause a Turnover if they are in possession of the ball.
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