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maznaz



Joined: Jan 26, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2021 - 23:04 Reply with quote Back to top

It's an open league, you are always going to come up against people who have optimised their team better than you have for the same TV. There are loads of short format leagues run on this site, with strong themes and dedicated people running them. Go play in those if you want a short league format feel?
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2021 - 23:38 Reply with quote Back to top

And redrafting specifically leads to that problem of perfectly designed low tv teams; redrafting a few stars that cost a lot in agent fees (but don't impact your next games tv) is definitely a viable (and arguably, the best) way to redraft.

Which means your perfectly redrafted 1100 tv team (but who spent 1350 of the redraft budget in order to redraft a few perfect superstars) may go up against that team who just got the hell kicked out of them in game 9, and wants a recovery match - not a very good recovery there.
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 07, 2021 - 01:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
Which means your perfectly redrafted 1100 tv team (but who spent 1350 of the redraft budget in order to redraft a few perfect superstars) may go up against that team who just got the hell kicked out of them in game 9, and wants a recovery match - not a very good recovery there.

Indeed, but isn't that exactly what happens in a League? Isn't that what happens in the Real World (don't follow football, but I will try). If Manchester Utd have 3 Star Players injured, does their match with Chelsea get postponed until it is more fair?

My gut instinct was the same, I have and still do look for recovery matches in C when appropriate. However, I think this is intentionally moving away from that (which my help bashy teams, whilst redrafting may hinder them - maybe that was the intention).

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 07, 2021 - 03:44 Reply with quote Back to top

no, in a league, everyone who is on game 1 of the season will never have any mng. with tv matching, that won't happen; one of you could be guaranteed a perfectly drafted team, while the other person could be in a mess.
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 07, 2021 - 04:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
no, in a league, everyone who is on game 1 of the season will never have any mng. with tv matching, that won't happen; one of you could be guaranteed a perfectly drafted team, while the other person could be in a mess.

smeborg wrote:
PROPOSAL

Match teams exclusively by matches played (no other criteria), as follows:

- 0 games played
- 1-2 games played

I think that's covered?

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Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 07, 2021 - 08:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok I'll try again. What's stopping people from going low TV, taking Morg, skilling one guy for DP / SG, and absolutely destroying every "normal" team? It'll be the days of CPOMB min-max in the Box all over, only worse.

(Aside: Note that in CRP, the min-max problem was created by deviating from the intended mode of play which is perpetual leagues. In BB20, the min-max problem would be created my moving towards the intended mode of play. Well done, GW!)
maznaz



Joined: Jan 26, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 07, 2021 - 09:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Basically if B scheduler is based on matches played it will be dominated by a few coaches playing a few powerful starter races with optimised teams and it will kill the division. The redraft rules add they are will exacerbate the inequality for teams that don’t require spp through the team. Matches played will start off bad and get worse as a matching requirement. I’m not saying the existing way is perfect as the fifteen games redraft is a problem, but matches played would be a horrible idea for a B scheduler. The idea of adding matches played as an optional criterion to C game finder is less awful but won’t help the site in any way IMO
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 07, 2021 - 09:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:
Ok I'll try again. What's stopping people from going low TV, taking Morg, skilling one guy for DP / SG, and absolutely destroying every "normal" team?


You could do exactly the same in a tabletop league, no?

Anyway so you'd do something like take a 1000k team + 60k for SG DP = 1060k, your opponent would need to be at least 1440k for you to get your 380k for Morg
Is that really an auto-win?


At the start of a new season, you know that teams are at 1350k minus agency fees, call it 1300k
You'll have plenty of spare cash for the agency fee to retain your SG DP guy
Your TV would need to be 920k, minus the 60k for SG DP means you've only got 860k for buying the roster..


Even worse is during the season, as mature teams could vary by as much as 500k?
So you'd have to stay very low to get Morg reliably, and then you're risking sometimes being outsized by 500+380 = 880k... basically playing teams twice your TV
maznaz



Joined: Jan 26, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 07, 2021 - 10:43 Reply with quote Back to top

https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4349018 - this is probably something near the upper limit of what to expect from TV being outsized if you take an optimised stunty team to get inducements.

Doesn't look like much of a problem for the flings. Adding games played as a limiting factor won't do anything to that team as they have no reason to take skills on any player except the trees.
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 07, 2021 - 11:18 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree, the low TV + Stars is an issue in bloodbowl, seems to be happening in a lot of the tourneys, like RRR 500. Again though, that appears to be an issue to BB, not the suggested scheduler/gf design.

It looks like the new FAQs has tried to address it by increasing the cost of Morg, whether that will be enough remains to be seen.

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Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Dec 07, 2021 - 12:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:


(Aside: Note that in CRP, the min-max problem was created by deviating from the intended mode of play which is perpetual leagues. In BB20, the min-max problem would be created my moving towards the intended mode of play. Well done, GW!)


Why are you asserting that? BB's historic and current intended mode of play is tabletop leagues. Most of which aren't functionally perpetual. Real life happens, coach change teams, leagues fold. The league running strong for years and years with the same teams is rare. 15 game seasons is unusually long (I've been in 5-6 tabletop leagues in the last five years longest season was ten games and that was unusual.)

The perpetual online environment is the deviation from the intent of the BB rules set.


Last edited by Garion26 on Dec 07, 2021 - 15:29; edited 1 time in total
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 07, 2021 - 12:04 Reply with quote Back to top

maznaz wrote:
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4349018

This is a great example, cheers
The Orcs could have scored twice but failed GFI with carrier.
The Flings did score twice because they got an early TD and then a TTM in T16. result was 1-2 but could have been 2-2 or 2-1

The Orcs had to play pretty well though. With worse coaches involved, the Flings would have been more dominant


Kinks wrote:
low TV + Stars is an issue in bloodbowl [...] not the suggested scheduler/gf design

Agreed, it's not a Fumbbl problem. Fumbbl actually has the opportunity to make something which fixes the issue, potentially it could match by games-played but also limit the TV gap, or something like that
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 07, 2021 - 14:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion26 wrote:
Why are you asserting that BB's historic and current intended mode of play is tabletop leagues. Most of which aren't functionally perpetual.


Sorry maybe I used the word perpetual wrong here, I'm not a native speaker. What I meant was, scheduled leagues rather than open TV-based matchmaking.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 07, 2021 - 14:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Language is the best substitute for communication that we got.

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Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Dec 07, 2021 - 15:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:
Garion26 wrote:
Why are you asserting that BB's historic and current intended mode of play is tabletop leagues. Most of which aren't functionally perpetual.


Sorry maybe I used the word perpetual wrong here, I'm not a native speaker. What I meant was, scheduled leagues rather than open TV-based matchmaking.


No worries I'm a native speaker and I flub things in conversation all the time! That makes more sense.

I don't think the min-max stars problem (TV 600-800 stunties against TV 1000-1200) is as big of an issue for FUMBBL as in tournament play - where those tier 3 teams are often getting a skill package or other benefits.

Functionally for tournament data you are roughly getting something like TV 1300 stunties (including stars and skill package) vs TV 1200 (including skills) tier 1 teams.

Low tier teams are overperforming in that setting because the tiered skill packages and other rules are frequently just being carried over from BB2016 rules sets.

I think BB 2020 makes the tier differences generally speaking smaller (stunties get various boosts) and the inducements (stars but also variety of options) generally a bit better. So a TV 1000 stunty team with Morg included should be a closer match against a TV 1000 Tier 1/2 then it was under previous.

I don't think however it's as favorable to the stunties as the skew in tournament data suggests.
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