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Gridironman



Joined: Mar 18, 2022

Post   Posted: Oct 04, 2022 - 05:44 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
We could have a better designed ruleset for the free game. Smile There is always room for improvements.


I would be interested in playing your variant of the game on your coach's page.

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An Amorican Nuffler that bashed in his youth.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Oct 04, 2022 - 09:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Kinks wrote:
Java wrote:
I would suggest checking out Elyod's and Storr's RRR runs with vamps

How do they compare with Elyod's & Storr's runs with other races?

I wasn't pointing at the fact that they can win with them and so everything is fine, but rather that maybe there is something to be learned by watching what they do, and comparing it to what instead seems to be failing.

You might have noticed me whining about black orcs for a while. While I still think they are not easy, I no longer label them as the worst in the ruleset, having gone and asked for advice from the coaches that seem to do well with and enjoy them.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 04, 2022 - 10:45 Reply with quote Back to top

This team https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=1087562 holds the Trophy bonus for vamps, with 11.0 points in 15 games

Currently they're on 20 games, 8/9/3 record
Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Oct 04, 2022 - 12:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Java wrote:
Kinks wrote:
Java wrote:
I would suggest checking out Elyod's and Storr's RRR runs with vamps

How do they compare with Elyod's & Storr's runs with other races?

I wasn't pointing at the fact that they can win with them and so everything is fine, but rather that maybe there is something to be learned by watching what they do, and comparing it to what instead seems to be failing.

You might have noticed me whining about black orcs for a while. While I still think they are not easy, I no longer label them as the worst in the ruleset, having gone and asked for advice from the coaches that seem to do well with and enjoy them.



Curious if you could share those tips. They are the team I find most difficult to play with I have tried. In context I play a lot of stunty and have dabbled with vampires but still find Black Orcs mystifying.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Oct 04, 2022 - 13:09 Reply with quote Back to top

spec Malmir, tussock, Candlejack, and anyone else currently on the top 10 of the Black Orc rankings

tussock wrote an exhaustive analysis of the team in the comments under a blog post of mine about them

also I'm noticing PeteW dabbling with them and he's always worth a spec when he's playing or afterwards, whatever team he's using

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Vlad Von Carstein's door-to-door evangelist
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 04, 2022 - 21:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Java wrote:
I wasn't pointing at the fact that they can win with them and so everything is fine, but rather that maybe there is something to be learned by watching what they do, and comparing it to what instead seems to be failing.

I'm not sure what you're point is? They are bad team, but if you are very good at using them, they aren't so bad? (but still worse than any other team used very well)

I'm under the impression Vampires will be getting a Spike soon. So for me, this conversation is about what the flaws of the current design are and what we'd like to see in a revision.

Java wrote:
You might have noticed me whining about black orcs for a while. While I still think they are not easy, I no longer label them as the worst in the ruleset, having gone and asked for advice from the coaches that seem to do well with and enjoy them.

Thanks, I'll have to take a look at some of the guys you mentioned.

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Better lucky than good
sebco



Joined: Feb 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 04, 2022 - 22:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Kinks wrote:
I'm under the impression Vampires will be getting a Spike soon. So for me, this conversation is about what the flaws of the current design are and what we'd like to see in a revision.


In my opinion, the new ToL vampire team with Animal savagery has to block a lot more than old vampire team with Bloodlust did.

I did not play with it. I only played against it.

It seems to be a hard team to play with but that's an interesting challenge. Even if the core mechanics remain the same for both these vampire teams (both are original teams with a unique pro -Hypnotic gaze in serie- and a unique drawback -Animal savagery or Bloodlust in serie), playstyle is really really different with these two teams.

With Bloodlust, thralls had to be placed where vampires wanted to be at the end of their actions. With Animal savagery, every player can take the victim role and victim has to be placed where vampires start their action. That changes everything.

I really would like GW to keep both (in my dreams, a humanlike vampire team with Bloodlust and a strygo vampire team with Animal savagery).

For the Animal savagery vampire team, I would keep approximatly the same roster as ToL one but would add a big guy with ST5 and Animal savagery too.

Concerning the Bloodlust vampire team, I don't know. Hypnotic gaze is stronger in BB 2020 than it was in BB 2016 (and previous LRBs). The BB 2016 vampire roster with Bloodlust would maybe be too good in BB 2020 but don't know what could be changed.

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I like cheese but don't call me skaven !
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Oct 04, 2022 - 23:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Kinks wrote:
I'm not sure what you're point is?


Basically, I believe that Vampires, like Stunty and Slann/Kislev, are less automatic than other teams, and require a bit of adapting and tinkering. If played like any other team, they will collapse faster than you can say "short bench".

I've described how I think they can be played and what their strong points are over a couple of blog posts, and my argument regarding winrates is that they've always been dismal, even in BB16, due to the weight of people "giving it a try" and giving up after the first few collapses, but they were boosted by high-TV, statfreak-infested teams that were not "part of the plan" (BB16 had within its rules a redraft mechanic not so different from BB20's).

Therefore, if the problem one is experiencing with them is related to the win record, my suggestion would be to look at ways to compare one's gameplay with more succesful teams' gameplay... which is probably a general good rule of thumb rather than relating to vampires only. But in the case of vampires, and other "hard mode" teams, the fail state is much more destructive and therefore looks more hopeless, stopping us from seeing ways to mitigate and avoid getting into that catastrophic fail state in the first place.

To put it bluntly, the widespread belief seems to be like bloodlust rookie/near-rookie vamps were easier, while tbh AS rookie vamps are much more reliable and effective.
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 04, 2022 - 23:31 Reply with quote Back to top

@Java, well yes, I agree Vamps will suffer a bad win ratio due to being a throw away team. I also expect they will be thrown away more often due to their appalling win ration.

But, like I think you said on an earlier post, it would be nice to look at the average stats of coaches that have played at least x amount of games with them. However, you would also need to take into consideration that such coaches are more likely to be experienced and more skilled. So it should be compared to their average win ratio. I believe vamps would still under perform, but have absolutely no evidence to back that up. If Purplegoo has a 55% win ratio with vamps I would consider that consistent with my belief vamps are in need of some love.

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Better lucky than good
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2022 - 00:07 Reply with quote Back to top

That seems like a reasonable benchmark. Let's look at the top C vamps.

I wouldn't take lazybowl or vicius as an example because Vampires are their most played team and there wouldn't be any conclusive evidence. Endrophil, Noble and Undress_ are similar cases.

Thantalas has more generalistic tastes. Better with WE/UW/Chorfs but worse with Necros, Bobs and Khorne. Storr has played a little bit of everything and his Vamps are second only to his Zons and his Ogres (mostly just Rumble runs).

TheGe's Vamps are better than the respective Orcs, Skaven and Dark Elves, they're in fact top of their class, and Coach's Vamps behave similarly. Malmir's and Jacaro's Vamps are middle of the pack compared with all their other C teams. Bugrum's Vamps are comparable with his Orcs.

One thing I noticed was that often, the Ranked winrate for a coach's Vamps was worse than their Competitive winrate, FWIW. I had to stop looking at statistics because there was a brief earthquake, here's hoping there isn't another for a little bit, at least Smile statistics be damned Smile

(there's another thing I miss of England, right there: a distinct lack of telluric events Razz )
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2022 - 01:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Looks like divine intervention stopping you from finding stats that seem to be disproving my point Sad

If it makes you feel any better, it looks like the ban on shale gas drilling is to be lifted, so we'll soon have the please of the occasional tremor Smile

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Better lucky than good
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2022 - 10:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Stats that could confirm your point are still out there to be found, I only looked at the first 10-15 C vamps coaches. I don't think Goo has played much Vamps, or [C] for that matter.

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Vlad Von Carstein's door-to-door evangelist
Joost



Joined: Mar 17, 2014

Post   Posted: Oct 05, 2022 - 17:42 Reply with quote Back to top

I find the new Vampires very hard to play. I believe the hardest rookie team to play, at least until I learn to play them better Smile

I find the lack of mobility very hard, but I presume that once a few vamps have Pro, Block and Dodge they will be quite powerful again.
Endrophil



Joined: Nov 16, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 06, 2022 - 10:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Rookie Vamps have always been hard. Tournament Vampires should be better. I couldn't adjust my playstyle to the new ruleset so far and had better results with the old roster
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Oct 06, 2022 - 13:55 Reply with quote Back to top

I’m following the thread because I loved Vampires in the before time, one of my favourite teams. My reaction when looking at them now is that they’re worse, but I’m intrigued by the arguments to the contrary and am happy to be proven wrong. I’m yet to have a go myself.

(Just posting because I came up, for some reason!)
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