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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2023 - 12:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Is it worth it in BB20 to hire Dedicated Fans, Cheerleaders or Assistant Coaches at start up? or EVER?

I always used to get 1 Coach and 1 Cheer, eventually.
I felt like it gave me a better chance to get Extra Rerolls on the Kick-of Table and it did. And that seemed to be a helpful way to help win games.

I know Fan Factor could be worth the cost at Start-up.
Don't know about Fans
spelledaren



Joined: Mar 06, 2004

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2023 - 12:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, DF. If you are in a hurry to get the team somewhere.

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FUMBBL!
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2023 - 12:49 Reply with quote Back to top

A.Coaches and Cheerleaders are not worth their TV in my opinion, +1 on a D6 is not a great chance increase. When I'm 20-40 TV underdog I hire 1-2 A.Coaches, for the simple reason I could not hire anything else and because it's better to win a rr than a Prayer (many are useless or even a disadvantage, such as Moles Under The Pitch).
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2023 - 13:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Dedicated Fans: yes buy these at team creation. As many as you can without compromising the rest of the roster

Assistant Coaches: don't buy these, but do induce them if you're a small underdog like MattDakka mentions
Also worth mentioning is the Weather Mage for 30k

Cheerleaders: don't buy these
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2023 - 15:11 Reply with quote Back to top

If I'm 30-40 TV underdog I consider the Weather Mage if there is bad weather, otherwise I hire 1-2 A.Coaches.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2023 - 16:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Assistant Coaches are good on a onesy-twosy basis, if a) your team has some hustle, and b) there will be overtime. So in a tournament, one AC is good if you know your opponent won't be able to do/deny great things with that 10k.

_________________
Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2023 - 16:55 Reply with quote Back to top

In competitive on here or a league? DF are great to replace dead guys, but I wouldn't take any cheers or coaches when you can induce them for 10k more anyways. I guess one benefit in a league is if you want to game your TV to make yourself a slight overdog so your opponent can't buy a key star or something then you fire them afterwards.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2023 - 17:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Considering that Bomber and Cindy cost just 50k, every 10 TV matters.
To work, A.Coaches/Cheerleaders first require to get Brilliant Coaching/Cheering Fans, and then to win the D6 roll with a +1 modifier that on a D6 doesn't make a big difference.
On a D3 maybe, but on a D6, no.
And yes, in case of league matches, where you know in advance the opponent team, then you could hire them to become the overdog as Carthage suggested, or, if you are underdog by 20, you can just buy 2 A.Coaches before the game (not as Inducements after game start).


As an aside, to really make A.Coaches and Cheerleaders useful, I would change Quick Snap, Perfect Defence and Blitz! events like so:

instead of D3 + 3 open players free to move, D3 + 1 + A.Coaches + Cheerleaders.

That way A.Coaches and Cheerleaders would affect more the events and would represent, in abstract, the tactical training of the team.
To keep balance, A.Coaches and Cheerleaders could be capped to 0-2 each.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2023 - 18:52 Reply with quote Back to top

I crunched the numbers on Assistant Coaches and came up with a formula:

(WR+TE)≥N.

W is the added chance of winning the roll with any given assistant coach. This is 6 if both teams have the same number of AC, and for each marginal coach going either way, subtract 1.

T is the chance of tying, and denying oppo a RR. This is 6 if the oppo has +1 net AC, 5 if equal, -1 for each marginal point beyond that, either way.

R is the value of another RR to you. This is a number between 1 and 6: 1 if you don't care about RR, 3 if you'd like one but not enough to pay for it, 5 if you'd take Extra Training if you were suddenly spotted 100k in inducements, and 6 if you're truly desperate. Add 1 to R (so 2 to 7) if a tie would result in overtime.

E is the same as R, but for the opponent, from their perspective.

N is 80 if neither team has any hustle (OTS option, or any MA8, or a few MA7), 70 if one team could do the hurry-up thing, 60 if both could, and -10 if a tie would result in overtime.

I can defend this formula if you want, but there it is.

Applying it in several cases, here's the test I came up with for shorthand. There are 6 conditions: if you meet four, one AC is smart; if you meet 5, or you meet 4 and the opponent has 1 AC, then 2 ACs are ok. If at any time you think you should consider a third AC, or if your opponent has more than 2 AC (or if they have 2 and don't meet 5 conditions), you should immediately fire all ACs instead.

Conditions:
Your team has hustle.
The other team has hustle.
R ≥ 4.
E ≥ 4.
Ties would result in overtime.
Ties would result in overtime.

_________________
Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2023 - 22:28 Reply with quote Back to top

ok, i don't fully follow the formula so..

Assume neither of us have any AC to start.
Therefore, W = 6, T = 5
R for me is 1. E shall be assumed to be a 3.

(WR + TE) = 6 + 15 = 21

N is either 60, 70, 80, or -10.

So, if there is overtime, you always want an infinite number of assistant coaches?
That seems wrong.

If there is no overtime, even if I assume my opponent would take a re-roll almost always (a 5), TE = 25, so for me to bother with an AC, both teams need to be fast (N = 60) and WR > 35; therefore R needs to be a 6 (desperation, which should never be the case - or my opponent needs a 6 and i need a 5 which also should never be the case.)


I don't think there's enough granularity in that formula. Either, I want infinite assistant coaches during an overtime game, or you never want one.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2023 - 22:35 Reply with quote Back to top

my personal formula:

cheerleaders are bad.
assistant coach: ~1/6 of the time, someone will roll the kick off event that matters. 1/6 of the time, a given assistant coach will affect the outcome of the roll. Therefore, 1/36 of the time, you get a re-roll because of the assistant coach. Therefore, in an infinite number of games, an assistant coach has a value = 1/36 of your teams re-rolls. That means, for the best case scenario, its worth ~2k. But, it's also a loss to your opponent, so it's worth 1/36 of their re-roll as well. So best case, another 2k.

So its worth about 4k, if you and your opponent both have 70k re-rolls. That means its worth taking only for those games that are 2.5 times as important as a normal game, or where your opponent will get inducements worth 2.5 times less than usual (assuming a kegs value). So if you're already giving up a ton of inducements, and they already have all the core inducements (so call it, if you're giving up more than 1.2 million worth of inducements or so), they'd become worth it. Or if the game is more than 2.5 times as important and you simply cannot risk that re-roll. Or about 3 times as important if both you and your opponent have 50k re-rolls. So, major tournaments or playoff matches, might actually fall into that range.
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2023 - 22:40 Reply with quote Back to top

All yall doing complicated math and I just look at them as 10k toggles to prevent my opponent from buying bomber.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Mar 28, 2023 - 02:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Big fan of DF at creation. I see so many podcasts and YouTuber / Twitch folks with "optimal team builds" that ignore DF. I have found that DF is super important for agility / brittle teams to keep up the cost of turnover of players. I generally start at 6DF for all my teams and work down from there depending on player costs. It does hamper Wood Elf league builds, as they're so expensive, but I do think its the better long term strategy. And given Fumbbl will be more "perpetual 15 game seasons" eventually, I believe that high DF would be a must here.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 28, 2023 - 02:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
ok, i don't fully follow the formula so..

Assume neither of us have any AC to start.
Therefore, W = 6, T = 5
R for me is 1. E shall be assumed to be a 3.


Right. Then, you compare 6x1 + 3x5 = 21 to 60, 70, or 80, or in a tourney, 50, 60, or 70, and the answer is no, if you don't want rerolls, don't take an Assistant Coach, at least not unless you're really really sure the other guy is desperate for re-rolls. So yeah, if R=1, you shouldn't be doing any math, or taking any AC, and you should seriously consider the option of taking fewer re-rolls.

Formula for R and E:
1: You can't see how another RR would help you. Perhaps you're packing 8, or all your players have Loner and Pro.
2: You might use it productively, but you're not interested.
3: You took enough, you're fine, but if you're handing them out, yes, please.
4: You could really use another but can't justify it TV or cash wise.
5: You want a RR bad enough that if given choice of Extra Training, 2 Kegs, a WApo, or a Bribe, you'd not just take the Extra Training, but feel relieved at the burden lifted from your shoulders.
6: It's even worse than that.
+1: Overtime is possible.

If you are Humans with 3 RR (R=4) and you don't know what you're facing (E=3) but most of them have some kind of hurry-up game and so do you (N=60), you have: 6x4 + 5x3 = 39, which is less than 60, so an AC will be about 2/3 effective gold-for-gold. Is that worth it? Depends on the situation.

Generally, I'd consider hiring ACs mostly in scheduled leagues or in KO tourneys, where you can see your next opponent and do the math before making the call. In open C play, I avoid them.

_________________
Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
SkittleMosaic



Joined: May 17, 2018

Post   Posted: Mar 28, 2023 - 06:11 Reply with quote Back to top

It's twice as likely the assistant coach affects the roll because if you go from a loss to a tie you deny a reroll. It's also worth half as much as a normal reroll because it's only for 1 half. So the required number of rolls on the table to get your 10k back is: # of rolls=(cost of opp rerolls+cost of your rerolls)/720; 720 being 1/6/6/10 [k]/2 [teams]. Thus you need at least 6-8 rolls on the kickoff table during your game to get your 10k's worth.

Thus assistant coaches could pay for their TV in an Elf v Elf shootout where there's no potential bomber, you're rolling on the kickoff table 8+ times, and can better utilise late half rerolls for 1-2 turn TDs.
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