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Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Nov 08, 2020 - 07:50 Reply with quote Back to top

With BB2020 on the horizon and goblins lacking some of their fun stars on release, I have decided to return my focus to my old favourite standard team: Chaos Chosen.

With the onset of BB2020, we now have one of the more controversial new rules: Redrafting. While this effects all the teams in different ways, on surface level none are more effected (negatively) than Chaos Chosen (and nurgle by extension). I would like to discuss potential "work arounds" and managing tactics for a chaos team in this new setting.

For reference redraft works as such:

1000k gold by default
20k per game played
20k per win
10k per draw
Last season treasury added

For simplicities sake, let us assume the following.

-New Redraft does NOT allow gold to be banked so it must be spent or lost

-A season lasts 6 games

-The Tv cap is 1300

---------

Following this, we now look towards the Chaos Chosen team standard line up.

4 warriors
7 beasts
3 rerolls

1000 tv

What would be the new development strategy for chaos? Should the team focus on getting block on as many players asap or min-max one hypdr killer?

Similarly, how should a chaos team redraft?

Going from season 1 to 2, assuming you get...4 normal skills, 1 skill on 4 different players. That is an extra 80k to rehire on top of another 80k for the skills. That is an additional 160k needed from the redraft off the bat.

Assuming a very bad season, the chaos chosen team would get

1000k standard
120k for playing 6 games
20k for winning 1 game
40k for treasury

This totals to 1180 tv exactly

This leaves the season 2 chaos team with

4 warriors (2 block)
7 beastmen (1 sure hands, 1 wrestle)
3 rerolls

This costs (to redraft) 1160 gold.

Looking at this scenario, its clear Chaos, an already mediocre starting team, has a bit of an issue affording redraft and now no longer can look forward to a "sweet spot" TV like before, at least in a league format.

What, then should chaos chosen do in the new meta of redraft and seasons?

Should chaos chosen forfeit starting roster integrity for DF?

What would be considered a manageable set of skills to bring from season to season?

What starting rosters could strike a balance?

With emphasis on DF, the 4 warrior build is now at even greater risk due to poor winnings.

What is chaos chosen to do in bb2020?
neilwat



Joined: Aug 01, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 08, 2020 - 08:44 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the seasons will be a bit different to this as they are aiming to be 15 games. So teams will get a bit more developed. In a local league I had to redraft a nurgle team at about 1300TV. I had to not take the beast and only 3 warriors to start but I had a solid ball handler and a classic killer - B MB C. This actually worked very well as teams often don't have that mass guard or block on all menz at this TV.

Not sure how it will all work out but I think it will be fun doing some experiments to see what might work out.
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 08, 2020 - 08:47 Reply with quote Back to top

DF?

I tried a non-Warrior build. It wasn't much fun. It was actually quite nasty when it worked - I retired a rookie Skaven team in 8 turns - but nothing like a 'proper' big Chaos team.

In Box, if we're playing 15 games, that gives you 1360 TV under the same conditions. So it's not as doom and gloom there as in a shorter season. In leagues I'm in, I'd be inclined to keep elements of the BB16 redraft rules (cash for TDs and cas, as I believe that encourages more exciting games than just wins/draws). But that doesn't help your question

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Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Nov 08, 2020 - 08:58 Reply with quote Back to top

DF is dedicated fans, new name for FF.

Sure in box the 15 games is fine and gives morw than adequate gold. However in this context I am mainly looking at leagues.

Something I considered which may be integral to chaos may be to offset a few players with banked spp. Keep them on the team but only level them once they get to the next season, to reduce the redraft cost.

Not sure however what strategies may emerge which would be optimal. I think the minotaur may pkay a big role now to fill the lack of stacking kill skills as he can still get claw and mb.
Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Nov 08, 2020 - 09:02 Reply with quote Back to top

neilwat wrote:
I think the seasons will be a bit different to this as they are aiming to be 15 games. So teams will get a bit more developed. In a local league I had to redraft a nurgle team at about 1300TV. I had to not take the beast and only 3 warriors to start but I had a solid ball handler and a classic killer - B MB C. This actually worked very well as teams often don't have that mass guard or block on all menz at this TV.

Not sure how it will all work out but I think it will be fun doing some experiments to see what might work out.


Hot damn, hot off the press off 2020. Thanks for that Neil. In your local league were you using the new redraft rules? How long was your season?

Aye I am looking forward to experimenting too. The initial impression was nurgle and chaos got a kneecap this new ed so its nice to hear you got sonething good out of nurgle. Sets a good precedent.

I think that may be part of redraft meta. You dropped the beast but you gained a far more developed player as a result for next season and carrier.

How did the ag2 rotters treat you?
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 08, 2020 - 09:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Do Chaos stop being a pure bash team at this point? With mutation access you can build a bunch of ugly, semi-specialised elves, that are cheap: a Beastman with Extra Arms is like a dark elf lineman when it comes to pick up duties, and costs you the same if you got that mutation randomly. Run only random mutant beastmen and see where we end up...

One thing I dislike about Chaos in BB16 is there's basically one right way to build them; the only difference I see between my Chaos team and somebody else's is who rolled the most +ST. I think this could be a nice shake up. (Or maybe I should quit and play Pact instead).

Strangely, having said that I think the optimal might now look quite a bit like smallkosp; one dedicated killer, a ball carrier and a bunch of chaff.

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lautrehamon



Joined: Nov 18, 2017

Post   Posted: Nov 08, 2020 - 10:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Unlike before, I would say that now a big guy can be really usefull. He's only one skill away from claw/mighty blow, and you'll need that to kill some dwarfs in the new format. Starting roster I would choose :

4 Warrior
1 Troll
6 beast
2 RR

or one less warrior to have a mino instead of the troll. With the low cap, I bet a low RR count will be the norm now, hard to redraft and keep 3RR at 1350, so maybe it's just better to start with 1-2.
Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Nov 08, 2020 - 15:24 Reply with quote Back to top

lautrehamon wrote:
Unlike before, I would say that now a big guy can be really usefull. He's only one skill away from claw/mighty blow, and you'll need that to kill some dwarfs in the new format. Starting roster I would choose :

4 Warrior
1 Troll
6 beast
2 RR

or one less warrior to have a mino instead of the troll. With the low cap, I bet a low RR count will be the norm now, hard to redraft and keep 3RR at 1350, so maybe it's just better to start with 1-2.


I like that build a lot. Kind of like the old lizard power build except you got an entire team of str4 on demand.

That does make sense yeah, I suppose thats part of the reason chaos got mpre big guys, they want them to use them. Not that that's a big deal, i generally started worh the mino to begin with.

The claw/mb combo at least doesnt require 2-3 skill stack so its kibd of a good patch onto the team without restrictibg them entirely.

Still though, I do hope chaos chosen stay somewhat viable this edition.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2020 - 17:43 Reply with quote Back to top

If the League Season is only six games not sure I would choice to play Chaos.

My aim would be to rehire 3 Warriors with Block and maybe Guard, 1 Quarterback and a Killer. I would not start with the big guy but hire a new one as soon as possible (2-3 games depending on winnings).

During the second season I can see taking Random Mutations as a first skill on Goats. There are plenty of good mutations and you can then specialize them later. Two Heads or Extra Arms becomes your Quarterback for instant.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2020 - 18:17 Reply with quote Back to top

I wonder whether, with the Season Redraft at 15 games and 1350k cap, is it viable a build like this:

- 4 Block, Guard Chosen;
- 1 Block, Claw, MB Beastman;
- 1 Block, Two Heads, Sure Hands Beastman;
- 2 or 3 Beastmen with Block (or Wrestle to make up for lack of Tackle) + Random Mutation;
- 1 Big Guy.
- 3 rrs, apo.

Thoughts?
Will it be hard to keep such a roster with the Redraft?


Last edited by MattDakka on Nov 23, 2020 - 22:31; edited 1 time in total
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2020 - 22:14 Reply with quote Back to top

That is about 1500 TV and another 160k to rehire 8 players.
Will not with with a 1300 cap.

Just about possible for a season two team without cap. What are you going to do for Season three though?

If you want a team that you can play for ten or more seasons in a league you have to cycle though Chosen. Can rehire 2-3 each season and have to train the others up from new rookies
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2020 - 22:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks Lyracian! Yes, I asked just to have an idea. Looks like playing Chaos it's not worth the effort, as I guessed.
Would be nice to have an all random mutations team but it would not be competitive.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2020 - 23:32 Reply with quote Back to top

I think that Chaos is a typical team that will benefit from rehiring more payer with less skills from season so season. Even if you spend more cash on agent fees.

I also think that for the most part rolling allot of random skills on them will pay off in the long run and then pick a good supplement skill now and then.

You then rehire the best players between seasons. That way you can get a bit more skills for cheaper TV.

Chaos is a tier 2 team so you should struggle with them a bit, that is part of Blood Bowl.
Dalfort



Joined: Jun 23, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 00:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Question related to Re-drafting the players, do they keep unspent SPP between Seasons? and would this be an effective way to plan for future Seasons (i.e. kind of hidden TV)

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CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 00:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Dalfort wrote:
Question related to Re-drafting the players, do they keep unspent SPP between Seasons? and would this be an effective way to plan for future Seasons (i.e. kind of hidden TV)


Players keep all their stats between seasons, so you can bank SPP at the end of a season to get some cheap extra skills in the next season. You can't buy these skills until after the first game in the next season though.

If you don't believe you need the skills in the play-off during the last season this can be a valid strategy to save some hard earned cash.

You HAVE to take a skill if you reach the level to roll for a stat upgrade though so keep that in mind.
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