PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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oh yeah, i see the advantage of sure hands for sure, and accurate. and blodge for defence usefulness.
I think we're discussing several good thrower build ideas, and the basic concept is sound.
High Elves can use a thrower for short drives, one turns, and to start offences well, but they tend to the expensive, so leadering them up is a good way to generate value. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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 Posted:
Jul 03, 2023 - 20:52 |
 
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I think all we can agree about Leader and On The Ball being very solid skill choices on a HE Thrower.
Yes, Leader seems to be a necessary choice due to Thrower's cost.
I wanted to explain the rationale behind my own Thrower's build, not claiming it's the ultimate skill build.
A passing-tailored-only Thrower could be effective as well (deep stalling could be possible), but, realistically speaking, it's better to build a freak Catcher for the 1TTD. If you build a Legend Thrower it will be hard to have a Legend Catcher as well (and the TV will skyrocket). Also, it's hard to protect 2 Legend players.
So, I decided to build just a Legend Catcher and use the Thrower like a ball retriever (and, later, if possible, develop him for long range passing).
As an aside, as long as Re-Draft is not implemented, in theory it would be better to take +PA because it costs 20 TV and it's like having Accurate and Cannoneer in just a skill slot. Realistically speaking it's hard to get +PA, though.
P.S. I edited my previous posts because I wrote Kick-Off Return instead of On The Ball, sorry for my lack of accuracy.  |
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Chingis
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 03, 2023 - 23:04 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | As an aside, as long as Re-Draft is not implemented, in theory it would be better to take +PA because it costs 20 TV and it's like having Accurate and Cannoneer in just a skill slot. Realistically speaking it's hard to get +PA, though. |
That's not strictly true.
Passes have four results from worst to best (dice-wise): fumble, wildly inaccurate, inaccurate, accurate.
(In desirability terms in probably goes wildly inaccurate, fumble, inaccurate, accurate but that's another topic!)
PA skill moves the boundary between inaccurate and accurate passes. Throw modifiers (like Accurate/Cannoneer) move the boundary between accurate and inaccurate *and* the boundary between inaccurate/accurate and wildly inaccurate. So whether you want +PA or Accurate/Cannoneer really depends on which of those you prioritise.
Both a PA boost and Accurate/Cannoneer give you an accurate pass bonus on one half of the range ruler, your preferred ranges. So take that as the baseline for comparison. Then each option gets a different additional benefit.
PA boost
+ boost to accurate pass chance at non-preferred ranges too
Accurate/Cannoneer
+ reduces WIP chance at preferred ranges |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 03, 2023 - 23:16 |
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HE Thrower with Accurate: 2+, 2+, 4+, 5+;
HE Thrower with Cannoneer: 2+, 3+, 3+, 4+;
HE Thrower with +PA: 2+, 2+, 3+, 4+;
+PA gives the best odds at each range, costs 20 TV, takes 1 skill slot. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %03, %2023 - %23:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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Chingis
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 03, 2023 - 23:18 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | HE Thrower with Accurate: 2+, 2+, 4+, 5+;
HE Thrower with Cannoneer: 2+, 3+, 3+, 4+;
HE Thrower with +PA: 2+, 2+, 3+, 4+;
+PA gives the best odds, costs 20 TV, takes 1 skill slot |
Right and those numbers are the accurate pass numbers only. So you're missing half of the comparison  |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jul 03, 2023 - 23:22 |
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When I pass I'm just interested in accurate results.
Generally I pass on turn 8 or 16, when Wildly Inaccurate or Inaccurate would likely make no difference or when I'm so desperate that a Wildly Inaccurate or Inaccurate would likely make no difference.
Most commonly I either pass to farm SPPs or to set up a 1TTD attempt.
Passing during an offensive drive it something I do rarely and as emergency solution.
That means that I tend to pick Cannoneer (because I want long range, for short range I can just run and hand off) over Accurate, but ideally I'd like +PA because it boosts all the ranges at the TV price of a Chosen Passing skill and it takes only a skill slot.
The problem of taking +PA is that it requires too many SPPs and Leader and On The Ball have higher priority. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %03, %2023 - %23:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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Chingis
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
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Jul 03, 2023 - 23:32 |
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Of course. As I said, it depends which you prioritise. But one is not strictly better than the other, they each have their upsides and downsides. It's still entirely possible that you might care far more about one than the other (and then you should probably pick that one!). |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 03, 2023 - 23:38 |
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+PA has the same TV price as a P skill, it takes just 1 skill slot, improves ALL the passing ranges.
To improve all the passing ranges without +PA the Thrower needs both Accurate and Cannoneer, which take 2 skill slots and cost 40 TV or 20 TV if random. In the best scenario they cost 20 TV but they will always take 2 skill slots (thus the Thrower will have to sacrifice a skill slot).
The upsides of +PA seem obvious to me.
The big downside of +PA is the SPPs cost, hence why I wrote: "as long as Re-Draft is not implemented".
No Re-Draft makes the high SPPs cost a smaller downside. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Jul 04, 2023 - 14:12 |
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It’s probably worth it to try for PA, because even if you don’t roll it you can take MV
Extra MV has an equivalency with higher passing skills, by making the ranges shorter.
It’s also more useful throughout the whole game, not just in the occasional turn when you throw the ball |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Jul 04, 2023 - 14:20 |
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Ideal thrower is possibly this?
Leader, Block, Dodge, PA, MV, MV |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Jul 04, 2023 - 15:11 |
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No thrower, unless a token one at mega tv |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Jul 05, 2023 - 00:38 |
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What's mega TV? I'd have thought by 1600 theyd be worth it |
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Mingoose
Joined: Jul 28, 2016
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| Posted:
Jul 05, 2023 - 02:01 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | No thrower, unless a token one at mega tv |
Throwers are TV neutral with Leader, I don’t see why you wouldn’t have one at any TV. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Jul 05, 2023 - 02:15 |
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because its -30k tv defecit until you get leader, you don't want to get spp on them when you could get spp on your blitzer or catcher, you don't want to pass unless you absolutely have to, so the only spp you're getting are vanity passes; and in order to even get the shot at vanity passes, you have to hire the thrower in the first place (which is money that should go toward blitzers, catchers, or your 3rd re-roll)
so until you've already got both blitzers at least 2 or 3 skills, and at least 2 skills on 4 catchers, i wouldn't want a thrower (as only once i have those basics can i justify giving my thrower td's instead of the other players - and even though they're a thrower, i don't want to risk passing unless i actually need to)
so for me, 1600ish tv |
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Nightbird
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 05, 2023 - 05:13 |
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So, what's the High Elf starting build, in BB2020, keeping seasons in consideration 
1x thrower-
2x catcher-
2x blitzer-
6x line elf-
2x reroll
or
1x thrower-
1x catcher-
1x blitzer-
8x line elf-
3x reroll
or... |
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& we prefer the pleasures of illusion." ~Aldous Huxley |
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