Nightbird
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Feb 09, 2024 - 12:11 |
 
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Hmmm...I enjoyed reading the stalling table JR. Really neat & I'd like to see it in action.
Also like the change to the passing skill by Sp00keh. The makes alot of sense. |
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"If most of us remain ignorant of ourselves, it's because self-knowledge is painful
& we prefer the pleasures of illusion." ~Aldous Huxley |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 09, 2024 - 12:23 |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Feb 09, 2024 - 12:28 |
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That too. It's a bit easier to start with some skills rather than having to earn them (players have to survive long enough to get them). |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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Feb 09, 2024 - 15:03 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | Elfball would still be overnerfed, even with the Wildly Inaccurate change.
I played Elves a lot and Wildly Inaccurate is not a big issue because the passing generally happens only when there is no better option and on the very last turn of an offensive drive. Most offensive drives don't require a pass at all (there can be a vanity pass to farm SPPs, but not necessary), the running gameplay is the plan A.
Elves should get at least a +1 to the PA they currently have, with multi rr. With 1 rr per turn again, +2 PA to every Elf (with the exception of Throwers). |
WI is an issue for the same reason Loner or Bonehead is. Is Loner/Bonehead that much of an issue? Probably not, especially when your are blocking with your big guy which already has Block. But it makes you think whether you really want to do it, each and every time. Whether you can afford to lose this Blitz opportunity. So it additionally discourages you from passing play - which wasn't very much attractive in the first place. It's like stabbing somebody who already is bleeding on the floor - can't really not consider that an issue, just because the guy is probably dying anyway 
Passing had its uses, and not only on the last turn. Moreover, elf players were so overpriced partly because every one of them could quick pass on 2+ - what made them very much potent at scoring on this last turn. Making them all suck at passing, and susceptible to WI effectively reduced their value a lot - while they kept their previous price. That's another big issue - elves players are grossly overpriced for what they are capable of now.
Totally agree about the +1 on PA for elves - all un-armored elves should have at least 3+ PA. I would even dropped it to 2+, while keeping Wildly Inaccurate - then would make throwers immune to WI on all "regular" passes (from player to player, with unmarked thrower) - so it would still made sense to use a thrower, especially for long throws. |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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Feb 09, 2024 - 15:18 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | By the way, NAF Elves resurrect game after game. That doesn't happen in perpetual leagues.
Elves are expensive to replace. |
It's not only their price - most elves have crappy skills OOTB, so even if you've got the money, you can't really replace a few dead positionals with new ones. Like, take Human thrower - the guy comes with PA2+, AV9+, SH, PA. Now look at EU or WE thrower - pathetic.. You need to give him SH and Block before he'll be somewhat close to human's thrower in terms of reliability. So much for elves excelling at passing game, my arse.. And I'm not even touching DE's Runner, that thing is untouchable.
All this is supposed to be compensated by having +1 AG stat, which was kind of substantial in CRP as it gave good passing capabilities to every elf on your team - but now it isn't, your regular AV8+ elves are as bad at passing as human AV9+ linos - absolute bs. After that change, +1 AG stat increase must have lower cost, it must cost at best 30gp now, if not less than that - thus lowering cost of all the elves rosters (so you would get about 100k cheaper elves team, compared to what we pay now - at least that would be fair) |
Last edited by SeriliKirico on %b %09, %2024 - %15:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Feb 09, 2024 - 15:24 |
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I pass either to farm 1 SPP (often on turn 1 or 8 or 16), and this can't be considered a real pass, or to 1TTD (on turn 8/16), or when super desperate because running gameplay failed.
Most of times moving the ball can be more safely achieved by running without passing.
So, while I think Wildly Inaccurate rule is bad, it's not the main reason people don't pass the ball. The main reasons are PA and running gameplay being safer with multi rr. I have quite often watched AG 3+ bash teams moving the ball by 15-16 squares just with Rushes and Hand-Off. Elves can do that kind of play even more safely, with AG 2+ and higher MA. |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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Feb 09, 2024 - 15:33 |
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A developed thrower still would allow you to cover additional 13 squares (6 from move and a 2+ throw to 7 squares with Accurate) with just an extra 2+ roll, isn't it good? Your thrower could be near your endzone in safety, and the moment the rest of the team is positioned appropriately, the ball could be delivered right into the oppo's endzone. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Feb 09, 2024 - 15:39 |
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The problem is that, in-between that pass there could be opponent players and the ball could be deflected/intercepted. The opponent team generally doesn't just watch you standing still. The Thrower could be chased too and unable to stay so deep and safe. The Weather could not be Nice, but Very Sunny or Blizzard.
My Elven Throwers take Accurate and On The Ball. Most of times there is no need to throw Long Passes or Long Bombs and I don't like to risk higher-than-2+ rolls if I can avoid it.
My Throwers are used for 1TTD attempts or for emergency passes on last turn. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Feb 09, 2024 - 18:51 |
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JR’s Blood Bowl, Third Season, Rules Proposals
Take II
Part I: Game Rules
1.1: Wildly Inaccurate
The Problem: Wildly Inaccurate would be an awesome rule if it didn’t come up nearly as often as it does now. These rules are also a fix for the over-nerfed Hail Mary Pass.
Implement 1a or 1b.
1a) Wildly Inaccurate only applies on a modified 0 or less if you are throwing the ball, not on a modified 1. A modified 1 is still Wildly Inaccurate if anything else is being thrown, such as a bomb or teammate.
1b) If a passing player is Marked and the result is not a 1 or a 6, modify the result for enemy Tackle Zones. If this brings the modified result to 1 or less (even if the player has a 1+ PA), the pass is Wildly Inaccurate. If not, add modifiers for range, weather, and Disturbing Presence, and determine whether the pass is Accurate or Inaccurate based on the passer’s PA.
1.2: Stalling
The Problems: Stalling is boring and safe and in this edition it approaches the dreaded “dominant strategy” status. Also, “Throw a Rock” has been a BB tradition for a long time, and my Prayers to Nuffle table doesn’t include it. I don’t want stalling to become super risky, far from it. But I’d rather give the would-be staller a reason to stall out of easy scoring range until turn 7, as this makes for a more fun game.
If a player is stalling, the opponent may roll 1d6 at the beginning of their team turn. On a 6, the fans get restless: roll 1d8 on the Ire of the Crowd table.
1-2: Throw a Rock: someone in the crowd throws a rock at the ball carrier. Treat this as a Stab attempt.
3-5: Rotten Veggies: the crowd pelts the ball carrier with bad food and concessions from the stands (which are, of course, often the same). The ball carrier must attempt to Catch the ball as if it were an accurate pass, and if this fails, it bounces.
6: Flasher: someone in the crowd stands up and reveals, uh, something or other, causing 1d3 random players on the stalling team to lose their tackle zones until the start of their next action.
7: Streaker: a crazed lunatic runs whooping across the pitch, and in the process the groundskeepers bowl over a random player on the stalling team. That player is Knocked Down in the square they occupy.
8: Early Celebration: the cheering crowd is so enthusiastic to see the ball carrier about to score, they rush out onto the pitch to greet the player, who must run Yakety-Sax to avoid the overeager fans. Scatter the player as if he were the ball. If the player scatters off the pitch, he is beaten up by the crowd as if pushed out of bounds.
1.3: Injuries
The Problem: the current injury meta is fun because it’s scary, but niggling injuries don’t seem to add enough to this to justify their complexity. We can shorten the rules considerably by getting rid of them, and it won’t mean much.
On the Casualty table, 1-6 is Badly Hurt, 7-12 is Seriously Hurt, 13 and above are unchanged.
1.4: Apothecary
The Problem: the Apothecary was once too good, now it’s not good enough. But in being made better, it should not be made reliable.
The Apothecary can be used once per half to downgrade any injury just suffered, other than Stunned, by a single step: Knocked Out becomes Stunned, Badly Hurt becomes Knocked Out, Seriously Hurt becomes Badly Hurt, a Lasting Injury is negated but the player still misses the next match, and Dead is replaced with a Lasting Injury. In order to do this, roll 1d6. If the 1d6 roll is a 1, the Apothecary fails, but on a 2 or higher, the player’s status improves. As with Team Re-Rolls, the second-half Apothecary may be used in Overtime but the Apothecary does not refresh for Overtime.
1.5: Prayers to Nuffle
The Problem: Cheerleaders suck now. Cheerleaders should not suck. Also, Prayers are overcomplicated. This will simplify them.
A single Prayer to Nuffle is generated whenever a team wins or ties a Cheering Fans roll. A tie on Cheering Fans indicates that both teams get the same Prayer. Prayers to Nuffle are available as an inducement, 0-2 at 50,000 gold each. If a prayer is already in effect when it is rolled again, re-roll it. Bonus SPP are not awarded on a per-incident basis, just one point per player, unless specified otherwise. Only the team receiving the Prayer may benefit from it.
1: The team’s MVP award this match grants a bonus SPP.
2: Any player who inflicts any Casualties by blocking or by actions that replace a Block or Blitz action is granted a bonus SPP.
3: Any player who scores any Completions this match is granted a bonus SPP.
4: Any player who successfully interferes with any passes this match gets a bonus SPP.
5: Any player who inflicts any Casualties by fouling gains a bonus SPP for each such Casualty.
6: Any player who pushes another player into the crowd for a Casualty gains a bonus SPP for each such Casualty.
7: One rostered player without Pro or Loner 3+ or worse gains the Pro skill for the rest of the half.
8: One random rostered player gets a primary skill of choice to use for the rest of the half.
1.6: Action Terminology
The Problem: the term “action” is equivocal.
A Block action or Blitz action allows the player to perform a Block maneuver. In the case of the Blitz action, the Block maneuver happens during the allowed Move maneuver. A Pass maneuver can be performed at the end of the Move maneuver allowed by a Pass action. Ta-da!
Part 2: Skills and Traits
The Problem: There are too many bad skills now. Rolling a random should encourage you to work with an odd selection sometimes, but it should not typically force you to fire the player who rolls it.
2.1: Agility
2.11: Safe Pair of Hands is no longer an Agility skill, replaced by Hit and Run, per the Amazon Blitzer.
2.12: Leap allows the player to make any Jump over a prone player with a -1 modifier and no modifiers for Tackle Zones. It also allows the player to Jump over an empty square or a Titchy opponent in the same way, but with an additional -1 modifier. The player may not Jump over a standing opponent, unless they are Titchy.
2.2: General
2.21: Dirty Player is just +1, there’s no other value. The Deathroller and Star Players with Dirty Player +2 get normal Dirty Player instead, but will be compensated (see below).
2.22: Shadowing is a blanket 8+ on 2d6, no table required. However, if the Shadowing player has a higher MA than the target, a +1 is applied to the roll, making it a 7+.
2.3: Mutation
2.31: Iron Hard Skin allows the player to disregard any Armor roll modifier per Armor roll made against them, so long as the modifier is granted by a skill or trait. Other Armor roll modifiers and rules that bypass the Armor roll entirely are unaffected, and Piling On and Pile Driver are unaffected as well. Additionally, this mutation does not counter the Special Abilities of Star Players, such as Crushing Blow.
2.4: Passing
2.41: Cloud Burster is no longer a discrete skill, and is replaced in the table by Safe Pair of Hands, formerly an Agility skill.
2.42: Fumblerooskie may be used spontaneously to fumble the ball if the throw would be Wildly Inaccurate. Fumblerooskie and Safe Throw together allow the player to hold the ball on a Wildly Inaccurate result.
2.43: Running Pass can be used on Quick or Short passes that are accurate and caught by the intended receiver without bouncing.
2.44: Safe Throw forces the interfering player to re-roll interference attempts unless they are marking the passing player, and allows the player to hold the ball if the throw would be fumbled. This skill may not be used on any action besides passing the ball.
2.5: Strength
The Problem: the killstack really wants another skill, but that skill has to kind of suck. Also, there are a bunch of really horrible skills in this category.
2.51: Arm Bar is replaced by Piling On. Piling On allows the player to go prone and re-roll the AV roll caused by a knockdown occasiond by a block the player made against a prone opponent in its Tackle Zone. Because the acting player is placed prone before the re-roll, skills that modify the AV and/or Injury rolls may not be used by this player on the re-roll or any subsequent Injury roll this causes.
2.52: Brawler allows the player to re-roll any number of both-down results, not just one. All such results must be re-rolled at once. The player may leave one Both Down result and re-roll the other(s) if so desired.
2.53: Mighty Blow is just +1, there’s no other value. Players who had Mighty Blow +2 get Crushing Blow instead.
2.54: Multiple Block adds just +1 to the first opponent’s ST, and +2 to the second opponent’s ST.
2.55: Pile Driver may be used when the player commits a foul and has not been spotted by the ref. The player is placed prone and may re-roll the AV roll. If the new roll is a double, the player is spotted by the ref as normal. Because the player is prone, skills that modify the AV and/or Injury rolls may not be used by this player on the re-roll or on any subsequent Injury roll this causes. Sneaky Git may not be used on the re-roll, but it may be used on the original Armor roll to prevent the player from being spotted by the ref and enable the player to use Pile Driver.
2.6 Traits
2.61: Bloodlust grants a +2 on the roll if the player blocks or blitzes, rather than +1. This will only matter in the case of the Vargheist: see 3.12, below.
2.62: Chainsaw kickbacks only result in turnover if the player is injured. Successful Chainsaw attacks do allow the Armor roll to be modified, but a Chainsaw attack replacing a block is not a block, so Mighty Blow and Piling On may not be used. If a player with Chainsaw is placed prone for any reason, make an Armor roll against them at +3. If an acting player with Chainsaw suffers an injury from being Placed Prone, this generates a turnover.
Part 3: Rosters
3.1: Amazons
The Problem: Amazons are too good. The Blockers are insane, the rest is excellent.
Blockers are MA5, AG 4+, 115,000 gold. Throwers lose Safe Throw.
3.2: Black Orcs
The Problem: Black Orcs are so feast-or-famine, and could use a bit of help.
Goblin Bruisers are replaced with Goblins, per the Goblin roster.“Goblin Bruiser” becomes a 0-2 position at 50,000 gold, and are Goblins with Thick Skull and AG/PS access.
3.3: Chaos Renegades
The Problems: I’m adjusting Orcs, which will give this team some much needed GS access.
Renegade Orc Linemen gain Loner (2+) and their skill access changes to GMS/A.
3.4: Dark Elves
The Problem: Dark Elves are fine in tournaments, but in leagues they often end up on the back foot. Also, elf linemen are a bit underpowered in this edition.
Linemen are only 65,000 gold. Runners gain Nerves of Steel. Re-Roll cost is increased to 60,000 gold.
3.5: Dwarfs
The Problem: Dirty Player (+2) is no more, so the Deathroller must be adjusted.
The Deathroller is 160,000 gold, gets Dirty Player instead of Dirty Player (+2), and gains Pile Driver.
3.6: High Elves
The Problem: See: Dark Elves, but the discrepancy is less pronounced. What’s not less pronounced is the costing, which seems kind of unfluffy for the highest-rollers of the high-rolling crowd.
Linemen are PA 3+. Throwers lose Cloud Burster and are 90,000 gold. Blitzers are replaced with Dragon Princes, who cost 110,000 gold and add the Pro skill and AGS/P access, but whose PA falls to 5+.
3.7: Imperial Nobility
The Problem: the team is badly overpriced, and the hits tend to fall on the fragile players, making them pretty much impossible to thrive with, even though the concept is awesome.
Blitzers gain Dauntless. Throwers gain MA7 but are now AV8+. Retainer Linemen are 5, 3, 3+, 5+, 9+, Fend, G/AS, 50,000 gold. Re-Rolls are 60,000 gold. Bodyguards and the Ogre are unchanged.
3.8: Old World Alliance[b]
The Problem: the weaknesses of this team are just too pronounced, but not dramatically so.
Dwarf Blockers lose Arm Bar and are 60,000 gold. All Dwarfs trade Loner 4+ for Loner 2+.
[b]3.9: Orcs
The Problem: Orcs are too damn consistent in this game. Orcs are supposed to be a risk/reward choice in GW games, but in Blood Bowl, they’re the opposite. They’re also kinda goodish, but that’s not the real issue.
Linemen get Loner 2+ and GS/A access. Big ‘Uns get PA6+ and Loner 2+. Goblins are 0-2 and get Loner 2+. Throwers are replaced with Runners, who are MA6 and trade Pass for Fumblerooskie, at 75,000 gold. Blitzers and Trolls remain unchanged.
3.10: Slann (Optional)
The Problem: Slann are too good in the conventional optional rules, dammit.
Linemen, Catchers, and Blitzers lose Pogo Stick and gain Leap and Very Long Legs. Linemen cost 65,000 gold. Catchers cost 85,000 gold.
3.11: Underworld
The Problem: this team is too good, and there’s exactly one reason why.
Remove the Snotlings from the roster.
3.12: Vampires
The Problem: the team is kinda good, and the big feels too reliable to be a big.
Vargheist gets Bloodlust 4+, not 3+. See also 2.61, above.
3.13: Wood Elves
[i]The Problem: Wood Elves took it in the shorts and need some love, but not too much.
Linemen are 65,000 gold. Throwers are 90,000 gold. Team Re-Rolls are 60,000 gold.
Part 4: Between the Matches
4.1: Team Value
The Problem: the costs are too dramatic at the low end, and the system rewards old teams with properly stacked skills and curated randoms, which can be frustrating for newcomers.
Chosen primary skills add 15,000 gold to the player’s value.
Chosen secondary skills add 30,000 gold to the player’s value.
+PA adds 15,000 gold to the player’s value.
+AG adds 30,000 gold to the player’s value.
+ST adds 60,000 gold to the player’s value.
The value of random skills, +AV, and +MA are unchanged.
At Emerging Star and Star, characteristic increases and chosen skills add an additional 5,000 gold pieces each to the player’s value. Super Star and Legend increase this addition to 10,000 gold pieces. Random skills are not subject to this rule.
4.2: Inducements
The Problem: The system in the rulebook was potentially awesome but needed salt. GW responded by scrapping it. I see this as very unfortunate, because the replacement system makes money less valuable, and decreases the amount of coach agency in the game.
Return to the RAW system with gold expenditures. Treasury spent for Petty Cash can only be spent in 10,000 gold increments and adds only half its value to the team's Petty Cash allotment.
4.3: Star Players
The Problem: some Stars are too good.
4.31: Bommer Dribblesnot is 90,000 gold.
4.32: Fungus the Loon is 105,000 gold.
4.33: Kreek Rustgouger is 200,000 gold.
4.34: Morg N’ Thorg is 340,000 gold, loses Mighty Blow (+2), and gains Mighty Blow and Crushing Blow.
4.35: Deeproot Strongbranch loses Mighty Blow (+2), and gains Mighty Blow and Crushing Blow.
4.36: Lord Borak the Despoiler loses Dirty Player (+2) and gains Dirty Player and Pile Driver.
4.37: Cindy Piewhistle loses Bombardier and Secret Weapon. All You Can Eat does not allow two throws but creates a special rule that acts more like the old Custard Pie: once per drive, in lieu of a Pass action, Cindy may throw a pie, using the passing rules, and anyone in the occupied square is Placed Prone. The pie may be deflected, in which case it is negated entirely; it may not be intercepted. Cindy may not move on the turn in which she throws a pie. The player's cost is unchanged.
4.38: Baleful Hex requires an unmodified 3+ roll to be used successfully.
4.4: Match Reporting
The Problem: I started by thinking that foul and surf Cas should count. But then it occurred to me that dodge Cas aren’t any different. Then it occurred to me that rush Cas are basically the same too, even if you did it to yourself, you did it for a reason that probably had to do with your opponent.
Casualties sustained for any reason are considered Casualties inflicted for the opposing team. Only Casualties caused by blocks (thrown or received) merit SPP for the inflicting player (barring Prayers to Nuffle).
Redraft
The Problem: the current version is too mathy and uneven, and once you’ve hit the cap there’s nothing to game around, but leaving Treasury open-ended at anything resembling full strength is a terrible idea.
Base redraft value is 1,000,000 gold. Add an additional 50,000 gold per two rounds permitted in the season, including any postseason tournament rounds, whether or not the team qualifies for those rounds. Additionally, every 50,000 gold in Treasury adds 5,000 gold to redraft value, with no cap. The league champion may add 50,000 gold instead of a fraction of leftover Treasury. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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| Posted:
Feb 09, 2024 - 23:17 |
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To judge a man, one must at least know the secret of his thoughts, his misfortunes, his emotions, Balzac |
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MrCushtie
Joined: Aug 10, 2018
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Feb 09, 2024 - 23:38 |
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What's so bad about niggles? I think they add a lot of depth in league play, because they don't make players more prone to being casualtied, but they do increase the risk that your super developed star player is going to get a career-ending injury later on.
I like the Cindy amendment, but if she loses Bombardier, does that mean she gets to throw no custard pies except on the turn she uses All You Can Eat? |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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| Posted:
Feb 10, 2024 - 17:35 |
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| MrCushtie wrote: | What's so bad about niggles? I think they add a lot of depth in league play, because they don't make players more prone to being casualtied, but they do increase the risk that your super developed star player is going to get a career-ending injury later on.
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Because they are too many now, in BB2020, and if you get one, your player is effectively dead (one NI doubles the chance of death when rolling on CAS table, two - triple it; NI also start to invite more NI, thus accelerating this process) - because you should replace them now, before they'll accumulate more SPPs which could have go to a new, healthy player.
This is supposed to be balanced by NI and stat loss healing during redrafts - but only if the league you play in uses it (not all do). Not sure about fumbbl's ladders, but Cyanide's ladder certainly doesn't, neither their leagues (redraft isn't even implemented there yet). And they said repeatedly that they don't want redraft to be used in their ladder at all. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Feb 11, 2024 - 00:57 |
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In my book, niggles are a lot of work for little impact individually, and in multiples they lead to the kind of turnover that isn't fun for anyone. At least if you statloss a player, you can say, "I did that," you know? But with niggles, you're just another brick in the wall. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 11, 2024 - 01:59 |
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Jonnyquality
Joined: Dec 10, 2022
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Feb 11, 2024 - 17:23 |
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Hands off High Elves, they are fine. |
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Gnomes are trash
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