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2007-12-11 09:11:53
95 votes, rating 4.9
95 votes, rating 4.9
Plorg on Fouling
Plorg On Fouling
Offense In Games
Consider this list of games:
Chess, Checkers, Go, Risk, Titan, StarCraft, Total Annihilation, Homeworld, Civilization, Stars!, Quake, Tribes, CounterStrike, Blood Bowl
All of these games have some things in common. Players are able to make moves to remove the opposing pieces from the board. Intentionally. On purpose! In many of these games (not all), removal of the opponent is the sole victory condition.
Here is another list of games:
Dominoes, Chinese Checkers, Scrabble, Settlers of Catan, Puerto Rico
These games do not allow direct offensive action against opponents. It is not possible to remove opposing pieces from the board. Winning these games is mainly an issue of maximizing your own options while limiting the options of the opponents. Reducing options is the only offensive move that can be made.
Something that both of those lists of games have in common: Plorg has played them a lot and is pretty good at all of them. :D
Let's talk about Zombies for a bit.
Zombie Fluff
Imagine you are running with a ball down a field. You trip and fall in front of some High Elves.
How would those High Elves react? Most likely they would share a hearty laugh at your natural inferiority, effortlessly scoop up the ball, and do somersaults down the field in the other direction.
How about Skaven or Dark Elves? It could be a sneering snicker and one of them might step on you as they pass.
Now consider what happens if you fall in front of some Zombies. Quite many films have been produced that speculate on the effects of a sizable Zombie population on modern society. I have seen a lot of those films. Probably so have you. One thing that all the films would agree on is what the Zombies would do next...
They would swarm around and proceed to FEAST ON YOUR BRAINS! They would tear off your limbs and chew on the sweet warm human flesh. Zombie films are unanimous on this point, including the comedies. In Blood Bowl terms, a Zombie Dirty Player foul with a high number of Zombie assists is the perfect simulation of this feeding ritual that has been captured on film time and time again.
Speaking Ill Of The Dead
Many complaints about Fouling point toward rosters with lots of AG2, Regeneration, and Dirty Players.
Zombies and Skeletons are low cost linemen who, due to having low MV and AG, are not really good at anything that has to do with the ball. They do not have much of a future compared to other players. Any Wood Elf lineman with six normal skills is a much better BloodBowl player than any Zombie or Skeleton with six normal skills could possibly become. In fact, comparing the relative TR/TS cost of both players to their teams, the highly skilled Zombie becomes a relative liability to the team. The Zombie main feature is that they can take a few hits and are cheap to replace. If you manage to kill an opponent player you get a Zombie for free. That's how cheap they are. The Wood Elf main feature is their potential awesomeness once they have six skills to go with their natural stats. They cost 70k each.
So what is a Skeleton or Zombie to do with their eternal unlife? With full rosters, they make up half of the players on any AG2 Dead team.
It helps if one of them has Kick. Maybe two Kickers if you plan on scoring twice with all that AG2.
Block is a decent choice. A Block Zombie makes a sturdy punching bag to tie up those Block-free Big Guys who can not Break Tackle yet. Skeletons are not so good at the punching bag game due to the lower AV. (This is why Khemri are often out-bashed by AV9 teams.)
Tackle? Maybe one or two in case you meet some slippery teams. However, Dead teams do not generally get many offers to play slippery teams. Most of the time the Dead get to play other bashy teams who do not have much Dodge. The real bashers have Mighty Blow or Guard instead. What use are the Tacklers then? The unused Tackle skills become dead weight to the total team TR/TS, but the other team's Mighty Blow and Guard are used just fine.
Dirty Player? With enough assists this makes a Foul equivalent to an armor break with Razor Sharp Claws (LRB 4). That is quite nice.
In LRB 5 it equals a Mighty Blow hit instead of RSC but so what? That is still not bad considering Zombies do not get Mighty Blow on a normal skill. Also considering the improvement of LRB 5 Piling On and the addition of Wrestle, there will be more bashy players who make themselves prone by the end of their turn. Many of those Piling On players probably have Block/Tackle/Claw/Mighty Blow/etc as well. Letting them get up and hit your players again is not in the best interests of your team to say the least. You won't be able to Block them if they are prone. The primary method of hitting that prone player is to Foul them.
From a purely mathematical standpoint, the most feasible way for any low MV low AG player to be effective is to remove a high TR/TS player from the pitch. Even if they must leave the pitch themselves it is still a net gain to the on-pitch situation. As a Chess analogy this is just like taking a Queen or Rook with your Pawn. Imagine entering a Chess tournament and asking your opponents not to take your Rooks with their Pawns. You would probably be laughed out of the room.
Chess or Football
Blood Bowl attracts a spectrum of players. The game itself is a simulation of a fantasy sports game using tiled board game rules. On one side of this spectrum are the Chess players, who will foul your best players with cold ruthless mathematical efficiency. They will stall when it suits them if they have the on field advantage similar to the behavior of an advanced tactical artificial intelligence. On the other end of the spectrum are the Football fans, who believe in the honorable sportsmanship they see on TV and remember from their schoolyard youth. They may object if you attempt to injure their players intentionally because that's not what a real sports team would do (although that in itself is debatable especially if you are a Hockey fan).
Keep in mind that Blood Bowl is somewhere in between Chess and Football. Those on one end of the spectrum will try to convince the rest to pull it their way.
Rule Subsets
Imagine a casual Chess game with your friend. Your friend agrees to go along with your rule that Pawns are not allowed to take Rooks or Queens. The two of you might have a fun and interesting game but it is not really Chess you are playing. You are simply choosing not to use the entire set of rules.
Different positions and tactics could become more effective in your game subset and you might start to rely on them. You could leave your Rooks exposed in situations that would "normally" be dangerous to them. However, your house rule is a subset of the game. The reason that the different tactics are effective is because the house rule limits the potential of the "normal" tactics.
Consider a hypothetical game, let's call it "BHBowl". It is exactly like BloodBowl except the worst possible injury is Badly Hurt. This game would be played much the same as BloodBowl. Casualty-based strategies would still be effective and AV 7 coaches would play against bashers without fear. No persistent damage to teams.
If Ranked division (or even a new League-ish division) was BHBowl, much of the community divisiveness over the use of Fouling would evaporate. When a player vs player game has the potential of permanently weakening someone's team for future games, there is a lot more hatred inherent to the game. Many coaches want to exact vengeance for past wrongs done unto their teams. However, when those wrongs have no persistent effect on a team's roster, coaches naturally have a much more mellow attitude about the whole thing. You might be able to experience this phenomenon yourself next January 3rd.
Consider another game, "KOBowl". The worst possible injury is a KO. This plays much like BHBowl. Regeneration players might be at a slight disadvantage, since a regenerated casualty could put them back in the game faster than getting KO'd. Maybe not... Depends on your relationship with Nuffle.
Now consider "StunBowl". The worst injury is a stun. Here's where the gameplay differences get really interesting. This is actually a very compelling game... if all teams involved have an average MV7+ and/or AG4+. Note that these are the same types of teams that have a lot of ST3- and AV8-. Other rosters who have advantage in ST and AV are weakened in StunBowl since there is no way to get opposing players off the pitch. Those six-skill Wood Elf Linemen stay on the pitch the entire game, running circles around the MV4 Zombies who can not pick up the ball with their AG2. In this subset of the rules, AG2 teams naturally lose to AG4. MV4 teams naturally lose to MV7.
Conclusion
Why do AG2 teams exist? Why have AV9 if it doesn't come with AG4? Because StunBowl is not BloodBowl. Casualties are part of the game. Intentionally removing players from the pitch is part of the game. It is completely acceptable for someone to prefer StunBowl or KOBowl or BHBowl. It is acceptable for someone to prefer to simulate KOBowl by using a voluntary subset of the rules that does not include Fouls or Crowdpushes or AV/INJ modifying skills. Anyone can feel free to make their own League and play there with like-minded coaches using whatever subset is preferred (in fact Plorg recommends it). They are simply playing a slightly different game using the subset of the rules that they prefer.
However, those coaches should not delude themselves into believing that they have any moral or intellectual superiority. They can play their own smaller game in their own League. They can not jump in the ocean and expect the sharks to play it too.
Offense In Games
Consider this list of games:
Chess, Checkers, Go, Risk, Titan, StarCraft, Total Annihilation, Homeworld, Civilization, Stars!, Quake, Tribes, CounterStrike, Blood Bowl
All of these games have some things in common. Players are able to make moves to remove the opposing pieces from the board. Intentionally. On purpose! In many of these games (not all), removal of the opponent is the sole victory condition.
Here is another list of games:
Dominoes, Chinese Checkers, Scrabble, Settlers of Catan, Puerto Rico
These games do not allow direct offensive action against opponents. It is not possible to remove opposing pieces from the board. Winning these games is mainly an issue of maximizing your own options while limiting the options of the opponents. Reducing options is the only offensive move that can be made.
Something that both of those lists of games have in common: Plorg has played them a lot and is pretty good at all of them. :D
Let's talk about Zombies for a bit.
Zombie Fluff
Imagine you are running with a ball down a field. You trip and fall in front of some High Elves.
How would those High Elves react? Most likely they would share a hearty laugh at your natural inferiority, effortlessly scoop up the ball, and do somersaults down the field in the other direction.
How about Skaven or Dark Elves? It could be a sneering snicker and one of them might step on you as they pass.
Now consider what happens if you fall in front of some Zombies. Quite many films have been produced that speculate on the effects of a sizable Zombie population on modern society. I have seen a lot of those films. Probably so have you. One thing that all the films would agree on is what the Zombies would do next...
They would swarm around and proceed to FEAST ON YOUR BRAINS! They would tear off your limbs and chew on the sweet warm human flesh. Zombie films are unanimous on this point, including the comedies. In Blood Bowl terms, a Zombie Dirty Player foul with a high number of Zombie assists is the perfect simulation of this feeding ritual that has been captured on film time and time again.
Speaking Ill Of The Dead
Many complaints about Fouling point toward rosters with lots of AG2, Regeneration, and Dirty Players.
Zombies and Skeletons are low cost linemen who, due to having low MV and AG, are not really good at anything that has to do with the ball. They do not have much of a future compared to other players. Any Wood Elf lineman with six normal skills is a much better BloodBowl player than any Zombie or Skeleton with six normal skills could possibly become. In fact, comparing the relative TR/TS cost of both players to their teams, the highly skilled Zombie becomes a relative liability to the team. The Zombie main feature is that they can take a few hits and are cheap to replace. If you manage to kill an opponent player you get a Zombie for free. That's how cheap they are. The Wood Elf main feature is their potential awesomeness once they have six skills to go with their natural stats. They cost 70k each.
So what is a Skeleton or Zombie to do with their eternal unlife? With full rosters, they make up half of the players on any AG2 Dead team.
It helps if one of them has Kick. Maybe two Kickers if you plan on scoring twice with all that AG2.
Block is a decent choice. A Block Zombie makes a sturdy punching bag to tie up those Block-free Big Guys who can not Break Tackle yet. Skeletons are not so good at the punching bag game due to the lower AV. (This is why Khemri are often out-bashed by AV9 teams.)
Tackle? Maybe one or two in case you meet some slippery teams. However, Dead teams do not generally get many offers to play slippery teams. Most of the time the Dead get to play other bashy teams who do not have much Dodge. The real bashers have Mighty Blow or Guard instead. What use are the Tacklers then? The unused Tackle skills become dead weight to the total team TR/TS, but the other team's Mighty Blow and Guard are used just fine.
Dirty Player? With enough assists this makes a Foul equivalent to an armor break with Razor Sharp Claws (LRB 4). That is quite nice.
In LRB 5 it equals a Mighty Blow hit instead of RSC but so what? That is still not bad considering Zombies do not get Mighty Blow on a normal skill. Also considering the improvement of LRB 5 Piling On and the addition of Wrestle, there will be more bashy players who make themselves prone by the end of their turn. Many of those Piling On players probably have Block/Tackle/Claw/Mighty Blow/etc as well. Letting them get up and hit your players again is not in the best interests of your team to say the least. You won't be able to Block them if they are prone. The primary method of hitting that prone player is to Foul them.
From a purely mathematical standpoint, the most feasible way for any low MV low AG player to be effective is to remove a high TR/TS player from the pitch. Even if they must leave the pitch themselves it is still a net gain to the on-pitch situation. As a Chess analogy this is just like taking a Queen or Rook with your Pawn. Imagine entering a Chess tournament and asking your opponents not to take your Rooks with their Pawns. You would probably be laughed out of the room.
Chess or Football
Blood Bowl attracts a spectrum of players. The game itself is a simulation of a fantasy sports game using tiled board game rules. On one side of this spectrum are the Chess players, who will foul your best players with cold ruthless mathematical efficiency. They will stall when it suits them if they have the on field advantage similar to the behavior of an advanced tactical artificial intelligence. On the other end of the spectrum are the Football fans, who believe in the honorable sportsmanship they see on TV and remember from their schoolyard youth. They may object if you attempt to injure their players intentionally because that's not what a real sports team would do (although that in itself is debatable especially if you are a Hockey fan).
Keep in mind that Blood Bowl is somewhere in between Chess and Football. Those on one end of the spectrum will try to convince the rest to pull it their way.
Rule Subsets
Imagine a casual Chess game with your friend. Your friend agrees to go along with your rule that Pawns are not allowed to take Rooks or Queens. The two of you might have a fun and interesting game but it is not really Chess you are playing. You are simply choosing not to use the entire set of rules.
Different positions and tactics could become more effective in your game subset and you might start to rely on them. You could leave your Rooks exposed in situations that would "normally" be dangerous to them. However, your house rule is a subset of the game. The reason that the different tactics are effective is because the house rule limits the potential of the "normal" tactics.
Consider a hypothetical game, let's call it "BHBowl". It is exactly like BloodBowl except the worst possible injury is Badly Hurt. This game would be played much the same as BloodBowl. Casualty-based strategies would still be effective and AV 7 coaches would play against bashers without fear. No persistent damage to teams.
If Ranked division (or even a new League-ish division) was BHBowl, much of the community divisiveness over the use of Fouling would evaporate. When a player vs player game has the potential of permanently weakening someone's team for future games, there is a lot more hatred inherent to the game. Many coaches want to exact vengeance for past wrongs done unto their teams. However, when those wrongs have no persistent effect on a team's roster, coaches naturally have a much more mellow attitude about the whole thing. You might be able to experience this phenomenon yourself next January 3rd.
Consider another game, "KOBowl". The worst possible injury is a KO. This plays much like BHBowl. Regeneration players might be at a slight disadvantage, since a regenerated casualty could put them back in the game faster than getting KO'd. Maybe not... Depends on your relationship with Nuffle.
Now consider "StunBowl". The worst injury is a stun. Here's where the gameplay differences get really interesting. This is actually a very compelling game... if all teams involved have an average MV7+ and/or AG4+. Note that these are the same types of teams that have a lot of ST3- and AV8-. Other rosters who have advantage in ST and AV are weakened in StunBowl since there is no way to get opposing players off the pitch. Those six-skill Wood Elf Linemen stay on the pitch the entire game, running circles around the MV4 Zombies who can not pick up the ball with their AG2. In this subset of the rules, AG2 teams naturally lose to AG4. MV4 teams naturally lose to MV7.
Conclusion
Why do AG2 teams exist? Why have AV9 if it doesn't come with AG4? Because StunBowl is not BloodBowl. Casualties are part of the game. Intentionally removing players from the pitch is part of the game. It is completely acceptable for someone to prefer StunBowl or KOBowl or BHBowl. It is acceptable for someone to prefer to simulate KOBowl by using a voluntary subset of the rules that does not include Fouls or Crowdpushes or AV/INJ modifying skills. Anyone can feel free to make their own League and play there with like-minded coaches using whatever subset is preferred (in fact Plorg recommends it). They are simply playing a slightly different game using the subset of the rules that they prefer.
However, those coaches should not delude themselves into believing that they have any moral or intellectual superiority. They can play their own smaller game in their own League. They can not jump in the ocean and expect the sharks to play it too.
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