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Poll
Streaming live your match on TwitchTV personal channel....
Hey! Wait ! My opponent should ask mine consent!
30%
 30%  [ 45 ]
Yes! I want to be an Internet Movie MegaStar! And pay me royalties!
13%
 13%  [ 20 ]
GASP! Shocked! I will leave FUMBBL and internet and I will recover in an old Monastery
2%
 2%  [ 4 ]
TwitchTV? what is TV? What is Internet? I know only www.fumbbl.com
7%
 7%  [ 11 ]
I think it can be done or not, it does not hurt me at all...
38%
 38%  [ 58 ]
Will trow a pie in face of .... (you chose the coach-name ;-) !!!
7%
 7%  [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 149


JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: May 30, 2023 - 17:55 Reply with quote Back to top

JimmyFantastic wrote:
JanMattys wrote:
JimmyFantastic wrote:
You shouldn't need to know ppl are watching to hold yourself to a decent standard.


In light of the transcript in the Spiteful Timeout thread, I find this sentence extremely amusing.


Lol. Transcript of entertainer entertaining sure is damning, yes.


I said I was amused. If your goal was to be entertaining, well done 👍🏻

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Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: May 30, 2023 - 18:38 Reply with quote Back to top

This whole streaming thing is so bizarre to me. It is basically "what gen-z does and what gen-x does to exploit gen-z out of their money". As an elder millennial caught in the middle I just cannot wrap my brain around it. Here is my attempt.

- Gen-z is filled with terror at the thought of failure. While previous generations used failure as the primary learning vector, gen-z simply cannot fathom exposing themselves to failure by "doing". So instead of "doing" they do a lot of "watching". This applies to nearly all things in life. Instead of "doing" blood bowl they "watch" it. Instead of "doing" a career they "watch" it at university. Instead of "doing" sex they "watch" porn. An entire generation of "watchers". They rationalize this by thinking that once they have done enough "watching" they will perform some "doing" at some level of mastery that limits the dreaded risk of failure.

- An elite subclass of "doers" has evolved to fleece the "watchers" out of their money. They charge people to experience things on their behalf. Effectively they are charging gen-z to subrogate the risk of failure. The claim is that by "watching" the elite "doer", the "watcher" is more effectively learning so as to avoid failure when the time to "do" arises. The dedicated "watcher" will often claim how much they learned from "doers", despite remaining quite terrible at the activity they are "watching".

- When people say they don't want to be "watched" while they "do" it conjures up some emotions. It calls into question the efficacy of "watching". It smacks of arrogance. Who do you think you are being able to "do" without first "watching"? If you want to "do" without being "watched", it must be because of your own fear of failure (gen-z projecting their own fears onto the "doer"). There is some strange expertise bias, where only those vetted elites should be "doing", and the only way to vet is to open yourself up to being "watched".

- The flip side to this coin is the elite "doer" whose revenue stream is threatened by the "unwatched" "doer". Hey we have a great scam going here, don't ruin it for us. If gen-z realized how great "doing" was they wouldn't pay us to "do" it for them!

This is all probably (definitely) a bit much for the blood bowl context, but it happens to cross into one of my regular preoccupations which is worrying about my little brother and being confused about why he and his generation act the way they do.

To stay on topic, as an anti-streamer, I don't think there is any way that chat would aid a blood bowl player. The only reason I don't want to be streamed is that the concept of streaming just gives me the ick. I don't understand it and I don't want to participate.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 30, 2023 - 18:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Interesting

I think a lot of that "watching" rather than "doing" is perhaps accessibility
In the Before Times (say pre-2000) you could be a fan of some game, hobby, sport etc and just have a go at it and be pretty bad
And you knew there was people better than you, and that therefore there was someone who was the best in the world. But they were so distant, so unknowable that they might as well have been theoretical

Now however, not only can you find out everything you might want to know about them, watch their interviews, follow their social media, and also watch endless amounts of content of them doing the thing

This means you can know everything
But it also means
- You're then very much aware of how bad you are
- You can learn quite a lot by watching
- Watching can be entertainment by itself

This situation just didn't really exist before. It would only have been the case for things like F1, football, etc that was hugely televised
For minor sports, weird hobbys, and games generally, it just didn't exist


So it's not so much that the generations are different. It's the world that's different


One thing as well though, is your own learning by failing is now permanently recorded. Your win/loss record is out there.
You learning to ride a skate park and falling off, is possibly being video'd and posted somewhere.

I sort of care about my CR, in that I check it and feel better about my ability at the game when it's higher. I know I'd play more games if I didn't. But I don't like that a loss has some (small) permanent impact, so if I'm tired or hungover or whatever then I often won't play


Last edited by Sp00keh on May 30, 2023 - 19:00; edited 1 time in total
JimmyFantastic



Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Post   Posted: May 30, 2023 - 18:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Mingoose wrote:
This whole streaming thing is so bizarre to me.


Ever watched any televised sports? Baffled by that too?

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Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: May 30, 2023 - 19:07 Reply with quote Back to top

JimmyFantastic wrote:
Mingoose wrote:
This whole streaming thing is so bizarre to me.


Ever watched any televised sports? Baffled by that too?


Yes, watching sports like pickleball and bean bag toss baffles me. Watching hockey and football makes sense because I don't usually have between 12 and 22 like minded friends available at any given time. If I did have a dozen friends available I would certainly choose to "do". I am an extremely avid disc golfer, and I only watch it on YouTube when my local courses are covered in snow.

Blood bowl is one of the most inclusive things of all time. You could play on FUMBBL with an antiquated computer and spin up a game nearly any time you wanted. The chance to "do" is almost always available.

Look, I don't have a problem with watching competitive sports, because that is a completely different animal. Watching the final for a FUMBBL major is completely different than what we are discussing. Watching you play against a random person is just weird.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: May 30, 2023 - 19:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok wow, now we've gone to judging a whole generation based on some overgeneralised kitchen table psychology with a healthy dose of bias thrown in.

Meanwhile in the real world, for example TFT streams are all about competitive play. Alternating between streams, VoDs, studying statistics, and playing your own games, is way more effective for becoming a good player, than "figuring it out yourself" aka "learning by doing" aka the worst way to learn anything.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 30, 2023 - 19:44 Reply with quote Back to top

For sure a mix of theoric knowledge and actual playing is the right recipe to learn things, but some things require more actual practice than lot of theory.
For example, if you want to learn playing a musical instrument, you have to actually play it often and regularly. You can watch videos and read books but you can't avoid to use your hands and play it until you get some automatic movements.
Moreover, machine learning (of the kind made by AIs playing against each other) involves lot of "doing", in the meaning that the AIs play lots of games and they get better as they do it. The difference is that an AI can play lots of games in short time, unlike human beings, but in theory you can learn things by doing them. Not everything, but some things, yes.
Unless failure can kill you thus stopping your learning process, for example, a sport like sky diving is too risky to learn it by doing it without any theoric knowledge, an instructor and a training.


Last edited by MattDakka on May 30, 2023 - 19:47; edited 2 times in total
Storr



Joined: Mar 25, 2020

Post   Posted: May 30, 2023 - 19:44 Reply with quote Back to top

I wonder if this debate exists in chess.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: May 30, 2023 - 19:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:
"figuring it out yourself" aka "learning by doing" aka the worst way to learn anything.


Going to have to agree to disagree here. Which is fine. It is natural to think the way you do it is best, because otherwise why would you think it, right? The meta point is that older generations have far more "learn by doers" vs the younger generations being dominated by "learn by watchers". I am also convinced that the majority of "learn by watchers" are doing it out of some sort of fear as opposed to an objective analysis of their optimal learning style. I am also willing to admit the majority of older people are "learn by doers" out of hubris.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 30, 2023 - 19:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Just an observation: we can't be sure that a spectator of a stream wants to learn to play the game streamed.
As far as I know people watch streams for many reasons. One can be learning how to play a game, another one learning the interface before playing a game, another one can just be because they are friends of the streamer and they watch it due to that.
There could be many reasons.
Jan-Erik



Joined: Apr 17, 2011

Post   Posted: May 30, 2023 - 20:33 Reply with quote Back to top

I spectate to make insecure people scared of having their plays and behavior scrutinized.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: May 31, 2023 - 12:08 Reply with quote Back to top

I've struggled in the past with caring too much about what random people on the internet think of me. Especially if I felt they were judging me unfairly. Many times I made a fool of myself trying to explain myself and get some sort of positive reaction. It took me years to get over it, and I still have to actively work on it sometimes. So I get it, I really do. Privacy is not the issue here, the issue is other people judging you.

But back when I was still obsessing about this kind of thing, half of the time people weren't even actually judging me, I was just projecting and overinterpreting. And the other half of the time, it was arbitrary opinions of people who didn't know me, didn't care and would forget about me in an instant. Those opinions say nothing about me, or even about them really. Yet I felt that if total strangers were going to judge me, they owed it to me to listen, to consider, to be fair. Looking back, that was an absurd notion. And all I ever achieved was drawing attention to my insecurities and my self-importance.

If I'm in a game on someone's stream and they call me out for bad play or bad manners, whether fair or unfair, what does it matter? To the streamer and their viewers it's completely ephemeral. And me, well I shouldn't take it personally, because it isn't. Most of the time I won't even know, and that's fine. Or if I know and actually check out the VoD later, there is something to be learned. The takeaway is either that I made a mistake, which I can try to avoid in the future, in which case, well met. Or it's that the streamer is clueless and I needn't check out their channel again.
Joost



Joined: Mar 17, 2014

Post   Posted: May 31, 2023 - 14:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Storr wrote:
I wonder if this debate exists in chess.


You mean the sport that debates whether anal beads can be used to cheat?
Klunker



Joined: Apr 02, 2021

Post   Posted: May 31, 2023 - 19:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Storr wrote:
I wonder if this debate exists in chess.


I used to play chess competitively.
While both "playing" and "watching" have merit, any good chess player will tell you to "play" more than to "watch". The key is to play intelligently, though. Re-watch the matches you lost. Learn from your mistakes.
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: May 31, 2023 - 20:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Joost wrote:
Storr wrote:
I wonder if this debate exists in chess.


You mean the sport that debates whether anal beads can be used to cheat?


I might try that. Games havent gone that well lately..

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