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Harpick



Joined: Oct 07, 2023

Post   Posted: Nov 04, 2023 - 09:22 Reply with quote Back to top

No, thrall you get with a kill, it's one by match maximum, and they only are available on the next match.
So you just need some bench Smile
Mighty Blow, I wouldn't advise it, since you first need Dodge, block, pro, strip ball, side step.
Dirty player is good to get randomly, but the issue is that you are often outnumbered on the pitch, that doesn't help you to foul. That remain interesting, you have access to key players on the first turn thanks to hypnogaze, you can tray a removal first turn Smile
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 04, 2023 - 10:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Yea you can get a free thrall but can’t use him until the next match

Currently on fumbbl they start on your roster with 1 matches played, and can get the MVP in the game they were recruited, both of which are minor bugs

I like a dirty player thrall on a random
Most of the time you won’t use it, but there will be occasional times when it’s really worth it

Mainly I like it because it provides some level of deterrence- it’ll influence how the other coach plays the match
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 07, 2023 - 12:37 Reply with quote Back to top

I've been playing 2 teams, first with a Vargheist (4/3/1)
And second with a Blitzer (6/0/4)

Both teams started with 4 rerolls, 2 throwers and 1 runner. And both later added the 2nd runner

The Varg is fun but the Blitzer is probably better.
Varg NEEDS Juggs or Block asap, it's more important than Mighty Blow. It'll get skull,skull,bothdown and lose you the game



The Blitzer probably wants Block then Pro. Pro is good to help mitigate the 3+ BL when moving, and makes you more confident you can Gaze with it.

You want to be Blitzing or Blocking with it, but actually... it's not like most teams where your blitzer takes a shot at something then retreats behind lineman screen
Instead, you need to be aggressively hunting the ball almost all the time, or trying to score.

So you'll be presented with the game-state after opponent's turn and create a plan of how to attack the ball, and some of your vamps will be in the right place to do Gazes to unlock a Blitz on the ball from one of your other vamps, and (I at least) can't plan well enough or predict the opponent's turn well enough to ensure which vamp is going to do which job.
So potentially the Blitzer needs to just move or Gaze, and for that Pro is very useful



Varg vs Blitzer comparison:
- Varg is safer if it's getting 3dice, but that usually requires 2 assists. Whereas the Blitzer gets 2dice without any assists.
This is more important than it sounds, as it's easy for you to get out-numbered or your team out of position.
You also don't really want to send your thralls into contact, or to move a vamp (which might cost you a thrall) just to provide assists

- Claw is less significant than I'd expected
In terms of removals, it just isn't that strong. I'd rather have Mighty Blow, and the Blitzer can get that on a Primary

- Frenzy is Frenzy
As in, it's fun, it's intimidating, but it's also a liablity
STR5 means you're fairly safe from frenzy-trapping yourself into 1dice or negative 2dice on the followup block
The problem is more of a positioning one, you're often stuck in contact and not where you'd want to be. Don't engage Sidesteppers
Gaze + Frenzy does open some good surfing possibilities

- Blitzer has AG2+
So it's easier for it to get to the ball carrier
It also means after they sack a ball, they can potentially also pick it up and run away, even with tacklezones involved
Whereas the Varg is basically just going to stand next to the ball and look menacing
(Varg could dodge on 2+ if it gets Break Tackle)

- If a game falls apart and your thralls are all dead, the Varg can still do stuff. It can always charge around trying to claw people
Whereas if the team just has normal vamps, their impact is limited




Overall, I feel the Varg is a wildcard, it is intimidating and causes chaos, which is useful in its own way

However the Blitzer better helps the vamp playstyle of aggressively attacking the ball carrier because it is more mobile, has Gaze, can carry the ball, causes less turnovers
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 07, 2023 - 12:45 Reply with quote Back to top

"vamp playstyle of aggressively attacking the ball carrier"

To expand on this, I've found that the team fades badly over the course of a match
You run out of rerolls and out of thralls
You start strong but get weaker very fast

This means you need to attempt to win the game immediately
If you can turnover the ball and score in the first few turns and start attacking again, as well as score quickly on your drive, it's hard for opponent to recover
Having the Kick skill is very important for this

However, if you do go all-in and fail, you're probably going to get grinded and lose
So it's a win-big or lose-big type of roster imo


Blitzer fits that better because it allows more aggression in attacking the ball, it allows the team to better focus on the task

The Varg perhaps fits a slower playstyle, it can continue to operate effectively* even when you're outnumbered and losing, and can cause problems for opponent just by getting in their faces and being STR5 and in the way
Harpick



Joined: Oct 07, 2023

Post   Posted: Nov 07, 2023 - 16:26 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree with all that you said.
That said, I don't get why the players that succeeded the most right now on fumble play Varg for the majority. Did they succeeded thanks or in spite of the Varg ?
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 07, 2023 - 16:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe they're better than me, or play a different way?

I do like the varg, I'll probably keep playing the team that has it
My sample size is very small, but my winrate% is better with the varg than without
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Nov 07, 2023 - 17:09 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not the best, but my win rate is solid on them, 14/1/3 since the rework and I swear by the Varg. I'm an agility player mostly and the way I treat it is a mix of a Rat Ogre and a Wood Elf Tree. Which is why I love it, its so flexible. You can frenzy a gap open, you can threaten sidelines, you can set up chain pushes, and (most importantly) you can use it to tie up multiple enemy players giving you an avenue to use your high agility and gaze to greater effect.
I think this might be the only team (higher TV skaven too maybe) where receiving the kick and scoring immediately is the best play. If you can 2 turn in the first half then get to play defense for 6 turns with 11 people your odds of going up 2-0 by halftime is pretty good. Then you just have to hang on in the second half and the Vargeist again shines there.
If you use the Vargeist purely as a removal piece, I think it leads to it getting pulled out of position and its value decreases dramatically. Try to use it instead as a positional control piece to let your vamps be the stars they are and it goes a lot better. This can take some adjustment because you want it moving last, but if you've played much Skaven or Wood Elves with their big guys, you already kinda know how to accomplish that balance.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2023 - 01:14 Reply with quote Back to top

The Blitzer can't get the mighty blow, claw combination. Case closed.

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RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post 22 Posted: Dec 01, 2023 - 23:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
sure, but i'm hoping they will amend the rule to be:

'when you enter the opposing end zone with the ball, your movement ends.'
'if you are holding the ball, you score a touchdown.''


I may be wrong but I have the impression that this point has not been clarified in the last Designer's Commentary of November 2023, isn't it?
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/P9GJXUTdGyGDeZkk.pdf

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Techcasualty



Joined: Jan 17, 2012

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2024 - 19:32 Reply with quote Back to top

I have a bit of a different perspective on the varg now that I've played him for a bit in league. You don't play the varg to be a removal piece, you play the varg to be a tank piece. He's armor 10, strength 5, and has claws. The claws, while nice in the big guy mirror match, is more important as a threat than an execution. He basically has taunt. With the exception of giving him the blitz on turn 1, I mostly just use him as a last activation piece to cause trouble. He gets into a big pile of enemies and says "deal with me". Frenzy is about shoving people around and getting into the muck, it's not about knocking people down. The number of games where I have shoved their big guy way out of position is many. If the player spends resources trying to knock him down, that's less resources being used to knock down your strength 4 vamps. If he bloodlust, who cares, he's still a threat. This gives a lot of freedom by not viewing him as actually a vampire and thus not contributing to using up your thrall pool. Also, because I'm using him as a meat mountain, I really don't care about skills. He can be bought later.

Now the real big downside is the cost. He's very expensive. You need to calculate if that ability to absorb hits/resources is worth the cost.

Personally, I feel like vampires are not a team that skyrocket in cost. They really don't have any other positionals to pick up. You probably want to pick up a thrall or two, but that's it. Vampires get skills, thralls get randoms. The team stays pretty damn cheap.
spelledaren



Joined: Mar 06, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2024 - 22:06 Reply with quote Back to top

*looks at 1900 TV vampires in the Steel Gauntlet*

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Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2024 - 22:57 Reply with quote Back to top

*sweating while looking at 650k+ inducements in my matchup against those vamps*
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 09, 2024 - 14:41 Reply with quote Back to top

These ones are only 2270 tv https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=1145277
Bazakastine



Joined: Mar 21, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 09, 2024 - 15:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Techcasualty wrote:
I have a bit of a different perspective on the varg now that I've played him for a bit in league. You don't play the varg to be a removal piece, you play the varg to be a tank piece. He's armor 10, strength 5, and has claws. The claws, while nice in the big guy mirror match, is more important as a threat than an execution. He basically has taunt. With the exception of giving him the blitz on turn 1, I mostly just use him as a last activation piece to cause trouble. He gets into a big pile of enemies and says "deal with me". Frenzy is about shoving people around and getting into the muck, it's not about knocking people down. The number of games where I have shoved their big guy way out of position is many. If the player spends resources trying to knock him down, that's less resources being used to knock down your strength 4 vamps. If he bloodlust, who cares, he's still a threat. This gives a lot of freedom by not viewing him as actually a vampire and thus not contributing to using up your thrall pool. Also, because I'm using him as a meat mountain, I really don't care about skills. He can be bought later.

Now the real big downside is the cost. He's very expensive. You need to calculate if that ability to absorb hits/resources is worth the cost.

Personally, I feel like vampires are not a team that skyrocket in cost. They really don't have any other positionals to pick up. You probably want to pick up a thrall or two, but that's it. Vampires get skills, thralls get randoms. The team stays pretty damn cheap.


I havn't used him yet and have obviously had a ton of success with my trophy team last season but this is how I see it in theory. He seems like he could fill a role semi-like the wood elf tree where he is eating up hits like you mention. Also his damage capabilities does mean teams will be worried about him hitting them back making him an early target.

Current plan is to try it later in my BBT10 vampire run if I have the chance to afford him and get a better idea how he compares to getting the blitzers.

Overall I very much see vampires in the same role they were in CRP/BB2016 which is a shock and awe team trying to win the match early on defense. Multiple rerolls per turn + hypno buff + the fact you dont lose a vamp on a failed bloodlust all make going all all in fast even better. My BBT9 squad was stupid lucky to basically have all of my original 4 vampires almost every game which let me really bloat up fast. Then on top of that scored enough to get the base skills to make it more viable. I also had quite a bit of experience in previous rulesets with vamps which made the adjustment fast.

I imagine with time people will start to learn how to position to make early sacks more difficult but they are always going to be able to just have a devastating turn with their opponent when you can fire off 4 rerolls even if some things fail.
Harpick



Joined: Oct 07, 2023

Post   Posted: Jan 09, 2024 - 16:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Bazakastine wrote:
I imagine with time people will start to learn how to position to make early sacks more difficult but they are always going to be able to just have a devastating turn with their opponent when you can fire off 4 rerolls even if some things fail.


GG for your BBT9 run Smile

Just wondering, you took the 2nd blitzer right when you had the opportunity or you wanted to first have blodge on all your "main" vampires ?
BB2016 vampires the optimum kind of was 4 vampires, 5 when all skilled IMO, with new rules I thought 5 is okay, I was kind of afraid to go up to 6 Smile
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