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Spence



Joined: Dec 05, 2012

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 13:36 Reply with quote Back to top

https://fumbbl.com/note/Christer/Disconnections

the disconnection flowchart? that doesn't give coach B the option to unschedule...

it used to explicitly say somewhere that box noshows were treated as a disconnection after 10/15 mins, but I can't find that now only

'Once a game is started or scheduled, you are committed to it and you are expected to play it through.'
The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 13:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Java wrote:

My main takeaway from this screed, beneath a very thin veneer of politeness, is "I'm not winning BBT because Spence/Malmir/Sideshowbob/whatever gets their bad match ups unscheduled all the time, I'm the only one playing fair".


That's an interesting takeaway. I'll refute it mildly buy saying I'm not winning BBT because I'm not good enough to win BBT. I watch Spence play often and he is much better than me. Malmir is the only coach I would say I 'study', and I know for a hard fact that he is much, much better than me. I don't take part because I think I'll win. I take part to be part.

But it is a competition, so I'd like to think anyone, like yourself, who ends up with a score anywhere close to Malmir's has to play by the same rules he does. You had a pretty darn nice score in BBT9. How many messages are in your PM chain during the BBT9 era saying "Sorry I was late, sir. I got the match unscheduled because I'm a busy guy. Toodles." 5? 10? Hopefully none. My thread isn't about me or you. It's about a possible exploit I just became aware of, and wanted to ask the community about it.

As an aside.. sometimes Malmir moves his final dwarf one square up when I would move it one square down. If I pause the replay and stare at it, I eventually see 3 reasons why it's better in most circumstances to move the dwarf up. It's next level stuff, to squeak out minor statistical advantages.. it reminds me of North American baseball and all the stats involved in their decision making processes.

One of the best things I have ever seen on FUMBBL was a trophy run or two ago when all of Malmir's early squads got destroyed.. absolutely horrible starts. Instead of going dark, he actually made a post about it, letting us all know that even he has bad luck.. bad dice, bad runs. Letting us know he was human, and that even he got discouraged at times. It was a shining example of the best the FUMMBL community has to offer by way of role-models.

So, no, I don't think Malmir gets games unscheduled. I think he shows up for a match when he enters the draw.

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RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 14:06 Reply with quote Back to top

The_Murker wrote:


.. but in a recent experience of mine, Coach B was late for the game and ignored my PM to try and schedule the game, and managed to get the game unscheduled anyway. When I questioned it, he actually sent me a link to the flowchart and told me "That's policy. That's just how it works." I guess I was mildly offended that he would make no effort to play the game, and that I might be dumb enough to believe his actions were justified by the flow-chart, somehow.' But he wasn't entirely wrong.. he did mange to get the game unscheduled easily, .


doh? so we are two to be dumb in this case me too as I don't understand where in the https://fumbbl.com/note/Christer/Disconnections flowchart is written that the game can be unscheduled automatically...?

In this case coach B disconnected , if you sent him a message and he did not react in 24 hours you have to acknowledge yes/no to unschedule (cancel) the game, this is not done automatically
am I missing something... Question

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Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 16:01 Reply with quote Back to top

If I activate by mistake or end up afk mid draw, and come back an hour later to find a PM from someone who's now in game or offline, I don't see wanting to use the tied up team right away as beyond the pale. The weird cult of the scheduler baffles me sometimes. That said, I'm not against a clarification regarding missed draws.

The_Murker wrote:

How many messages are in your PM chain during the BBT9 era saying "Sorry I was late, sir. I got the match unscheduled because I'm a busy guy. Toodles." 5? 10? Hopefully none.


See? You can't help it. You have to accuse people of malpractice, based on absolutely nothing.

You seem to believe that the way you do it, "just asking questions", shields you from criticism but in fact it is quite rude and disingenuous as well.

Yes, I admit it, you got me, inspector. I have engineered dozens, scratch that, HUNDREDS of unschedulings in order to secure my titanic result of... 6th overall? Best snotling? In a competition where the only prize is given to the first place and I never had a realistic chance to achieve it. Evil genius!

Get over yourself, man.

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The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 16:52 Reply with quote Back to top

"If I activate by mistake or end up afk mid draw.. I don't see wanting to use the tied up team right away as beyond the pale."

Cool. We can disagree there. I see that as an unreasonable desire, based on it being your mistake that led to the missed opportunity to play. I think having your team tied up until you speak with your opponent is a perfectly reasonable expectation. One that helps maintain the integrity of the scheduling system.

"I'm not against a clarification regarding missed draws."

Excellent. Perhaps there we can agree. I don't think the information displayed on the flow chart was doing it for you. I'd prepare myself for any possible solutions presented to make a clear distinction between the coach who shows up on time, and the coach who arrives late. Those two coaches just might have different options available to them when it comes to getting their teams unscheduled.

"Get over yourself, man."

Good suggestion. Done. I'm over myself now. If you have any insight as to why a busy Black Box might break-down or be less efficient if certain scheduling policies were in place I'd love to hear them. You might know far more than me about what makes the box tick.

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Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 17:47 Reply with quote Back to top

The_Murker wrote:
Good suggestion.  Done.  I'm over myself now.


No, you're not. You've completely glossed over being called out. Throwing the stone and hiding your hand, are you?

By being so certain your version of events is correct, you're giving me the impression of being quite accustomed to the procedure.

You've got a really nice score this BBT. How many times have you used this trick you suspiciously know so much about? 5? 10? Hopefully none.

Just asking questions here.

Quote:
If you have any insight as to why a busy Black Box might break-down or be less efficient if certain scheduling policies were in place I'd love to hear them.


See, I'm not part of the weird cult of the scheduler. To me there's nothing sacred or destined to be about the box pairings.

Box is a way to "get a game now", without having to go through the haggling and wrangling of gamefinder pings. Simple as that. If you don't get a game now, you can get one in 15 minutes. If there's a no show, who cares, it's a casual match, a pickup game anyway. You'll get another game.

If box is such a serious business that it needs auto concedes on no-shows, so be it. To me it's efficient enough in getting me a game now. If I want to arrange games to a set date, there's leagues and tournaments.

Toodles.

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The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 18:16 Reply with quote Back to top

"You've completely glossed over being called out. Throwing the stone and hiding your hand, are you?"

Sorry for glossing that over. What am I being called out for? Did I cast a stone in my OP? Perhaps I cast a stone at everyone in the BBT with a higher score than me.. all obvious cheaters? When and why did we start talking about Murker and/or Java. Who cares about those 2 specific coaches. If there is a specific incident between us you'd like to talk about I invite you to DISCORD PM me. I would like to know how you think.

Maybe you are just baiting me to insult you so the thread will be locked. I don't know. Sorry. Level 10 Gaslighting would be to start dragging your own name through the mud and accuse me of forcing you to do it somehow. I can't participate. I don't know you.. I don't have access to your FUMBBL PM's.. and anything between us can be discussed privately.

I would love to discuss the modern scheduling / un-scheduling policy here though, if that's OK with you. I've been here almost 13 years and have never had a game cancelled without being part of the decision until it happened twice in the last two months. I'm asking if there have been recent changes, and I'm open to hearing opinions and trying to learn something.

I'm possibly an evil turd, sure, but I'm honestly interested.

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Jan-Erik



Joined: Apr 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 18:41 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm completely outraged by these accusations
Malmir



Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 21:02 Reply with quote Back to top

I’ve cancelled the odd game over the years but always because my opponent disappeared or didn’t show. Usually the game hasn’t even started and the reason feels genuine. On the odd occasion it hasn’t I’ve mentioned it in my cancellation request though I did have one recently that felt dodgy that I didn’t mention but I didn’t have enough evidence. I’m not interested in forcing concessions. I want to win on the pitch. Oh and probably worth mentioning I have never dodged any opponent ever:) I don’t remember ever failing to complete a game my opponent wanted to finish
Malmir



Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 21:13 Reply with quote Back to top

I replied to this having read page 1 and missed that there was a page 2 so I wasn’t aware I was in the thread. My post feels slightly weird now but I was just offering my two cents
Spence



Joined: Dec 05, 2012

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 22:06 Reply with quote Back to top

java wrote:
weird cult of the scheduler


They are basically just pick-up games, sure. Most of us don't take them that seriously. 9 times out of 10 by the time you check back in an hour after a missed draw your opponent will just have unscheduled. But that has to be their prerogative.

If we can decline box pairings at will we're just done in terms of competitive bb. We can forget trophy and gauntlet - everything is effectively tinder.
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post 12 Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 22:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Malmir your ability as a BB coach is such that I think you would be forgiven even a voluntary deletion - which - for me - would be the equivalent of an elephant flying.
Very Happy

I think there is some mutual misunderstanding in this post probably due to historical grudges I don't know about.

Leaving aside personal polemics I think it is fair to point out a few points

- those who apply in the Box AND participate in the Trophy are participating in a tournament. In this sense, the official tournament rules should apply to these people (which, by the way, prohibit the granting of concessions, whatever but also mandatory oblige the persons to play after this the concession apply...) and which are a little more restrictive than those that may be there for an occasional activation (in game finder or in simple box): So in this sense a BOX match that is also a Trophy match in my opinion should be a little more 'protected' from the point of view of the rules than a competitive match (with game finder or simply as a random Box activation)

I happened to accidentally activate by mistake and then switch off the computer. In this case, if it is the last game of the day (and you are not a fan of reading Fumbbl forums like me Wink ) I will rarely hear the coach's Pm before 8-12 hours. But i think is very rare. I would have accepted to lose the game in this case without any problem.

- That said, I also understand Java's point criticizing those who consider the Box a kind of 'religious competition' where every game is 'sacred' and should be strictly regulated by the bible of the ranking God.


Also is very rare in my opinion that coach could apply this dirty trick algorithm described by The Murker, but is true also that in the disconnection flowchart the automatic unscheduling is not indicated so a certain amount of surprise is legitimate, so i can understand The Murker surprise, even though I am totally convinced that there is nothing shady in this story (*)

My opinion is this:

IMHO Murker's post was without malice (maybe he was hurt by the automatic unscheduling, which is a mystery to me anyway because the flowchart does not provide for it), and was not meant as a personal attack.

And Java's reaction I think is shareable because of the talk of the "religion" of the box or the "coach ranking" that is sometimes almost paroxysmal (in Italian we'd say "molla un attimo!" "let go a little" i.e. don't take yourself too seriously!).

I say this because I know (a little) both of these coaches and think they are good and honest coaches in their own way so I find this 'personal' debate pointless

(*)when you encounter strange behaviour in a system, be it a game, an electronic system, a natural event always use the principle of 'Occam's razor'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem".

There is no need to invent who knows what theories when faced with a rare and strange event. In 99% of cases the most obvious thing is the true thing, and I believe that in this case the most obvious thing is that we are in face of 2 rare accidental events

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2024 - 22:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Spence wrote:

If we can decline box pairings at will we're just done in terms of competitive bb. We can forget trophy and gauntlet - everything is effectively tinder.


I would guess that admins could keep an eye on it from running occasional reports.
I don't know if they do. They have caught cheats in the past.

Though, I am sure that many people who play in the Box are mainly there because it is the quickest place to get a game.
The Box wouldn't be as busy without them.

If it is too strict it will be tougher to get a game.

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RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post 3 Posted: Feb 29, 2024 - 11:54 Reply with quote Back to top

My boomer brain finally understood the problem.

Indeed, there is one point of ambiguity in the flow chart and concern time and ticket support.

So let me preface this by saying that in my opinion both visions are legitimate: if you want to ensure the integrity of the Trophy (which like any tournament has some more obligations than simple gamefinder or box activation), just as sometimes accidental activations should be unscheduled so the "scheduler law" is not to be intended written in the stone.

As a corollary we will also assume that there are no dishonest coaches practising no-show for personal gain (or if there are we will consider them statistically insignificant)

So let's analyze what can happen in a "no-show"

Coach A activates, Coach B does not show up (not out of malice but because he activated then went afk for some reason he forgot to deactivate). Coach A then follows the flow https://fumbbl.com/note/Christer/Disconnections:
he waits 15 minutes and then sends a PM to Coach B.

Coach B is AFK does not read (he went to sleep or is fighting with his son who left the water pipe open in the bathroom and flooded the house)

NOTE: the flowchart does NOT state that after sending PM Coach A MUST open a support ticket too, if he does want to play the game. So coach A waits.

After a while Coach B comes back, realizes that he has activated a game by mistake (and maybe he didn't read the PM... I don't know... it can happen, maybe he gets a lot of PMs), he wants to use his team for another game (maybe see the other Coach A is playing another game meantime) so he asks by opening a discord support-ticket to staff:
"can you please delete this match? I activated it by mistake"

As it happens frequently in Box, administrators often do not have the time to handle all the paperwork following the standard process and tend to close the ticket so the match is rescheduled (this happen very often if you open the ticket in Discord. If you open a ticked in fumbbl web site usually take longer).
So the process can be relatively quick and in 1 or 2 hours match is unscheduled without an acknowledge of Coach A.

In this case in the flowchart Coach A is still in the "wait 24 hours" box but the match has been already un-scheduled.

The flowchart does NOT expect Coach A to sends a message to the staff if he does NOT want the match to be cancelled. He should send message to Staff ONLY if he wants to cancel the game (this to limit probably workload to staff )

So to make it simple and avoid any frustration I would say that, leaving the flow chart as it is, if Coach A wants to play that game whatever it takes (because it is a favorable match for instance if A= Dwarf and B = Goblin) or whatever other reason, after 15 minutes he sends the PM to coach B (as in the flowchrt) AND within DISCORD->FUMBBL-Staff-Help opens a ticket too in which he explicitely asks STAFF:
" Dear staff i have a no show problem I am following the flow chart disconnection procedure. PLEASE meantime DO NOT unscheduled the match :I will wait 24 hours if Coach B will not answer I will let you know and follow-up" .

And he can be sure staff will not unschedule anything

Now this process requires an extra work for the staff but i think we also can reasonable think there are not so many events
{"no show"} AND {"coach A does want play absolutely"}

So I don't expect an exponential growth of support tickets, and 90% of no-show can be solved quite quickly and in the "rare" cases this unlucky event like the one described below happens nobody is disappointed.

What do you think is it ok? Maybe in this case a "note" to this page would be welcome
https://fumbbl.com/note/Christer/Disconnections

cheers!

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The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2024 - 14:11 Reply with quote Back to top

I have not thought about it enough to know, but I suspect part of the problem might be admin not easily being able to tell who is Coach A and who is Coach B.

There might be no easy way to confirm who was the tardy person with less options than the coach who was on time.

I'd be happy to assume that most coaches are relatively relaxed on the subject of un-scheduling, and happy for the default assumption for admin would be to assume both parties would be happy to un-schedule, provided there was a simple and/or elegant way for admin to quickly check if any particular pairing was an exception to that rule, perhaps involving a member of the Cult of the Scheduler.

An elegant solution would be for each team bio page to have a 3 setting toggle button that appeared when it was scheduled for a match.

The initial setting would be in the NEUTRAL position, indicating the coach had not looked at it, or made a decision yet

Any time within 15 minutes of the game first being scheduled the coach could set the toggle switch to A) - "I would like to try and finish this match." Once set to A, the switch stays on A until the coach changes their mind.

If the coach has been AFK from FUMBBL for 15 minutes after the draw, the toggle switch would default to B) - "I would like the match cancelled." A coach could set the switch to B at ANY time as well.

To get a game unscheduled, admin could receive a request from anyone and check the position of the switch for the other team in question.

This sounds like a terrible amount of programming, perhaps over the top, but might be possible.

An UN-elegant solution would be for any nerd like me, who thinks it's their right to have game played, would be to alter the very top of the team bio page to say clearly, "I'm scheduled for a match with coach Gary at the moment, and I am NOT OK with it being cancelled. I'd like to play it." This puts the burden on the cult members.. fair enough.

Admin would need to check one team bio page before a cancellation, which might suck, and this policy would also need to be known by the Box community, or at least those in the cult.

Anything requiring too much effort or investigation by volunteer staff might bog down the system.

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Last edited by The_Murker on %b %29, %2024 - %19:%Feb; edited 1 time in total
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