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Joined: May 20, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 10:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Which of the existing rosters have done well out of the update? I'm going to consider the changes in a vacuum (blame the physics education) and not consider how wider rule changes impact them. So some rosters like Nurgle are really going to suffer from the removal of D3 MVPs, but I won't take that into account. Also passing has broadly changed in the same way for all teams, so I'll only make reference to such changes where there's a particular impact.

These views are with a mind to the competitive match making leagues on fumbbl. Therefore star players and how good you can make a 1000TV roster are not a primary focus.

--- Most winningest ---

Underworld: +10k on the GR and +15k on the thrower (though it has accurate in effect for free now). But you get 15k snotlings! You can use their swarming ability to stuff extra bodies onto the pitch. Then foul with abandon. Extra assists for blocks or fouls, tackle zones. This is big. A snotling represent a saving of 45k over a goblin with two heads, for similar mobility bull-s***. There's also M access for the gutter runner on normals.

Orcs: Irrelevant thrower changes. Troll gets vomit for 5k (eh). Now the big stuff... animosity for all. Well I don't think this is too terrible as giving the ball to another player was never high on the priorities. Black orcs get +Mv for 10k. Amazing! That's a buff to the orcs' biggest weakness. Giving the black orcs the old side to side treatment just got harder. I do genuinely think that this movement is a big deal, this placement isn't just here for controversy.

Humans: 20k in total saved on the mandatory 4 blitzers, and you can roster a halfling for a TTM attempt. Although the thrower received a small buff (essentially getting accurate for 10k), I still think the catcher is the true ball handler, so that's fairly moot.

Skaven: RR are down 10k! Similar to humans, the changes to the thrower are fairly irrelevant as a gutter runner is the likely carrier. Gutter runners went up 5k, but the best roster is probably still 3-4 GR and 2 storm vermin + chaff line rats. Overall the team cost has fallen.

Chaos: You can take a big guy that isn't a minotard. Only a minor buff in my eyes, but still something.

Goblins: I think it is a buff (to the hooligan, trolls, and bomber) but they are too dependent on the new rules that I'm IGNORING, so I'm not going to comment. (Read: I have no clue).
--- Least positive ---

--- No change ---
Dark Elves: Nothing important happened. Though dump off on the runner is now slightly worse.

Halfling: +5k on the catchers, but hefties can pass better. Eh.

Necromantic: All the positionals increased by 5k, but I think the new wraiths are great. Yes, no hands limits ball handling options (which will give this team real character), but gaining FA and SS is great. Add guard for a very annoying player.

Nurgle: Rotters are -5k but lost an agility. I think this is a slightly bad trade, but not very important. The cost changes to the positionals will balance out.

Ogre: The definition of no change. Gnoblars are 5k cheaper to buy, but with disposable still active it just means you can get your RR and ogres a bit faster.

Undead: Whilst ghouls and mummies went up 5k, I think the utility of the mummies' strength - now that +Str is 80k - has increased.
--- No change ---

--- Least suck ---
Pro Elf: +5k on the thrower and the blitzer. But on the flip side they are apparently tier 2 now (could benefit in NAF?) and I think this is the team best positioned to make use of the +10k AV stat-up. I think we will could be seeing some line elves being turned into high elf line elves as their first level up, helping the largest weakness of the roster.

Dwarves: +5k on the runner and slayer leaving you ~15k down overall on the roster. Pocket change.

Wood elves: +5k on the dancer, and catcher lost sprint. Also the thrower is a whopping +15k more. It's not a huge nerf but it is going to have an impact.

Renegades: Lost P access on linemen, that's a big hit. And they've lost S access too.

Lizardmen: +5k on saurus and +10 RR. The roster increased by about +50k and they got very little. Ouch. The chameleon is better, with improved passing and free KO return, it could have a place on shorter drives.

Bretonia: +5k on the linemen. Boo! Squires get stand firm, which I think is a wash. I liked them best with just guard, keeping them effective but still disposable. Standfirm for 20k is a good skill, but also not necessarily something I'd pick for all of them. The knights have had a tragedy, losing dauntless to save merely 5k. Grr. And two of them have been turned into lame throwers that I don't even want. Do we want to take an Ogre...?
--- Oww shucks ---

I'm wrong though right?

Edits: 1st for improved clarity and accuracy. 2nd to incorporate the good points people have made.

Last edited by Muff2n on Aug 12, 2020 - 16:51; edited 5 times in total

Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 11:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Break Tackle change hurts Saurus a lot, but reduced claw-power helps av9 teams

Being able to pick your skills helps stud players like wardancer or wolf develop how you'd like, especially if they develop fast

Redraft increasing cost each season hurts slow-developing players like big guys

Passing seems better now for rosters with a Thrower, and worse for rosters without?

Joined: May 20, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 13:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Those are the kind of factors I'm ignoring for this assessment. But I'm not sure doubles are going to be that common seeing as they cost 40k. You need some serious value out of that. In addition we might see fewer stacked skills, so more pieces that only grabbed 1-2 necessary normals.

Joined: Sep 18, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 15:16 Reply with quote Back to top

I'll just step in regarding the pro-elves as I am most versed in them out of the released teams.

I'm not sure how being acknowledge as bad is a upside for pro-elves. Maybe they will get some love in NAF but that only effects their tournaments which are a tiny percentage of bloodbowl games.

The AV increase at 10k is nice but I don't see it as being meaningful. A level one stat increases costs 18 SPP. Lineelves are unlikely to ever get that and even than their is a 50% chance that it is an AG or P stat increase which, while not useless, isn't worth the three random skills or two choosen skills you gave up to get it. I'm not even sure that secondary skills in general due to their cost. This hurt pro-elves who benefit greatly from a player or two with guard.

I expect a lot more naked lineman (of all races) with no skills because of 1)redrafting and 2)the removal of easy SPP farming for them (especially elves).

The upside to pro-elves I see is that with linemen in generally getting worse you have the potential to see more early turn turnovers and elves have the speed to capitalize on them more than most.

A decreased power blitz is probably a neutral for them. Blitz was stupidly powerful if they benefited from it and stupidly powerful if they got hit by one. The decreased number of players that can move may stop them from getting a cage on their catcher in a blitz but the a limited number of players that can be moved by the other team make make drives where you are hit by a blitz manageable.

Catchers are going to be even more important now as they can recover from the redraft fastest and can get their Wrestle,Dodge, Tackle at 26 SPP. Blitzers too to a lesser degree.

Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 15:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Biggest winners with redrafting - DORF DORF DORF DORF DORF

Joined: Mar 01, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 15:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Gutter runner getting normal access to mutations for UW is also HUGE

Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 15:40 Reply with quote Back to top

UW being able to field 14 players on a drive is incredible.

Joined: Apr 22, 2020

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 15:44 Reply with quote Back to top

"Ogre: The definition of no change."
I disagree, there are changes, and generally for the better, even if they aren't that big.

1- Gnoblars are 5k cheaper, meaning that at 1000k you can start with 5 ogres AND 3 RR (for example).
2- Low cost linemen gives access to Riotous Rookies (100k, 2d3+1 journeymen for the match)
3- starplayers are cheaper and much better for Ogres. You can get Griff or Deeproot. Game changing for Ogres.
4- TTM is easier to pull off. More chances of success, and can get spp.
5- The new advancements table is amazing for ogres, especially since they can get spp fairly efficiently. You can go directly for block. Or you can take random primary strength skill since most of them work for ogres.
6- the new brawler skill benefits a lot to ogres, which are often able to get three dice.
7- Arm bar is more situational, but your opponent is now less likely to attempt dodges because failing a dodge is better than taking a mighty blow in the face.
8- the nerf of leaps means that matches vs leapers aren't automatic losses

Joined: May 20, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 16:06 Reply with quote Back to top

@steinerp yep, being called T2 is unlikely a benefit outside of some edge formats. I just find it interesting that with such tiny nerfs they got placed at T2. And you make good points about the difficulty of getting to 18SPP in a timely fashion. But I do think that the impact is big. 15/36 AV break chance to 10/36. For a LOS player that is a steal. I think team value wise it is more efficient than skills.

@Jimmy yeah maybe UW are most improved

@Alien I had missed that gnoblars are cheaper to purchase, letting you start with a better roster. But with disposable, still no TW, it isn't a big change. The rest of your comments, though valid, are 'non-roster' changes.

Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 16:08 Reply with quote Back to top

JimmyFantastic wrote:
UW being able to field 14 players on a drive is incredible.

Say what? Is this something to do with that team info thing that every race seems to have. Please will someone list what they all do?

Joined: Mar 22, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 16:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Regarding rosters, it would be reasonable to include star players as part of that. In that vein:

  • Dwarves can now recruit Griff(!), Zug, and Deeproot.
  • Undead/Necro lost Chaney, Setekh, Ramtut, and the Count. They're left with Gretchen and an agi 2 thrower as unique stars. Blech.
  • Elves get Eldril with a 2+(!) gaze that he can reroll once per game.

Your also have to look at how these price changes impact team's starting lineups. Orcs have to start with a goblin on their roster if they want all 8 of their good players. Lizards have the same starting rosters but are down a reroll on each of them.

That's besides how you can't really look at rosters isolated from the ruleset. Ma10 is out of the game, which hits Skaven the hardest. At the same time, you can more reliably get +MA than before. Claw is worse which shifts things around a lot, as does the removal of D3 MVP.

Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 16:41
Reply with quote Back to top

JimmyFantastic wrote:
Biggest winners with redrafting - DORF DORF DORF DORF DORF

I agree with this. By virtue of being the best race hit with the least change, Dwarfs seem to have come out of this really well. Great starting skills still.

IF we're looking purely at rosters though (which I don't think you can really do, as the Break Tackle change was the biggest change for Lizards, but I digress) I think the following:

Biggest Winner:
Pleased about this one as they're one of my favourite teams. M access of Gutters is nice. Being able to field a Rat Ogre (who now doesn't waste actions and can be your blitzer) is cool and potentially great, but being able to throw d3 snotlings onto the field on top of your starting 11 is a little bit silly. Snotlings as a roster need the help. I'm not sure Underworld do. The snotling become i) free foulers ii) free Rat ogre food iii) assists and hole pluggers. It's a big chance for them

I think humans are a close second for biggest winner

Biggest Loser:
They might even be better now, but Animosity is just such an un-fun mechanic that I don't see this team and want to play it any more.

Personal Disappointment:
I think they had the potential to really make this roster special and I was so sad to read it. Still no M access on the big guys which seemed a no-brainer. Adding a Rat Ogre is nice, but losing S access from the Marauders really limits their potential. I don't mind that chance in isolation, but I'd have liked to see it balanced out by maybe swapping their 'different race' players for positionals. Skaven thrower, Witch Elf etc. just to make them more interesting.

"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude

Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum

Joined: Sep 18, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 16:46 Reply with quote Back to top

@Muffins I think saying they are tiny nerfs is wrong. I see the team dropping significanylt in power. I didn't include it as it wasn't specific to them but the decrease in passing effectiveness is a major nerf. They will have a harder time freeing the ball after a blitz and they can no longer develop distance passers nearly as cannoner and accurate no longer overlap or ability to get +AG effectively (and with some luck).

Joined: May 20, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 16:58 Reply with quote Back to top

@Malmir see swarming (D3 players with swarming can setup in addition to the normal 11).

@Steinerp good points. They are the team most impacted by the passing changes.

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 17:09 Reply with quote Back to top

JimmyFantastic wrote:
Biggest winners with redrafting - DORF DORF DORF DORF DORF

Yup this was my gut reaction, other biggest winners imo are (in no particular order) Pro Elves, Black Orcs, and Skaven.

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