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Irgy
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2012-11-06 04:03:38
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Match-Making in [B]
Some pros and cons of various B match-making approaches. Another long blog, another current hot-topic, feel free not to read it. But for those who care I hope it's a decent summary of the various options and opinions about them.

This doesn't touch on the issue of people not wanting their teams to get beat up - I see that as partly a side-effect of the other issues, and partly what B is supposed to be about in the first place anyway. It's mostly trying to deal with "min-maxing", without introducing new problems.

Incidentally, to me, "min-maxing" is what people are supposed to be doing. But, when people start throwing the term around though it's a sign that what people "should" be doing (i.e. playing optimally) is at odds with what people want to do (i.e. have fun). That is a problem, I just see it as a problem with game design rather than min-maxers themselves. Since the match-making itself is a game design parameter that Christer is at least theoretically willing to change it's worth talking about what could be done.

So, here's some of the possible inputs to matchmaking, and the pros and cons of using them.

TV
+ Reduces the number of inducements given out (they work ok but you can get sick of having 1M worth of them every game)
+ Better matchups (inducements reduce the imbalance but aren't even supposed to remove it). In particular avoids massive TV skilled-out teams totally outclassing rookies (which could be WMD's style bashing, or just any rock-solid high TV team)
- "min-maxing". The core of the problem is that normally (e.g. in leagues) each bit of TV only needs to be worth its weight in inducements, and so in general most TV increases are worth having. With TV-matching, each bit of TV needs to be worth its weight in opponent TV. It might seem like a subtle difference, but in a game theory sense it creates a downward spiral in TV, because in general the least-useful piece of TV that you have is worth getting rid of because on average your opponent will lose something equally valuable. The spiral only stops at new teams, who are constrained in how they spend their TV, and at "sweet spots" for particular races/builds where to go lower they would be giving up something more valuable than their opponents of a different race. Rookie teams getting beat-up and losing in a frustrating manner is just a side-effect of the underlying system.

Games played
+ Avoids new teams being preyed upon by experienced teams
- Doesn't help old but beaten-up teams, or indeed even teams that are simply slow to develop
- Allows cheesy play by repeatedly starting new Amazon/Undead teams to pick on new teams of races that are weak early on.

Team W/D/L record
+ Min-maxers can play against other min-maxers, everyone's happy.
+ Depending on the formula, it naturally accounts for games played as new teams have similar W/D/L records. Though it also pulls in the negatives of "games played" in the process...
- Need some way to balance recent record against long-term record, that accounts for both random variation and a team's changing line-up. In particular it's unavoidably going to be slow to account for teams getting beat up (or, in theory, bloated) and no longer being as competitive as they once were.

CR/BWR
- Generally inferior to W/D/L record. Some coaches have a mix of joke and competitive teams. Even the NAF breaks up coach records by race.

Race - by which I mean adjusting any of the above factors to account for weak/strong races or racial matchups
+ Mitigates some of the problems of other methods
- Doesn't adjust for different "builds", e.g. rookie chaos team vs min-maxed chaos team.
- High increase in complexity for marginal gains.

Fan Factor
+ An existing value that already provides a formula with many of the desirable characteristics of a W/D/L-based system.
- Heavily punishes teams for buying FF. Not a big deal as such, but a silly property of the system. Also makes teams hate rolling ff+, which is an odd thing to do.
- Low signal to noise ratio. Basically there's about 4 fan-factor tiers: new (0-4), poor/average (5-7), good (8-10), on-a-roll (11+). Given that your fan factor is always +-2 or so just from dice rolls, FF is not strongly differentiating.
- Impossible to fine-tune its behaviour.


My personal recommendation:
To me, W/D/L is the winner. I would create "TR", a Team Rating based off the W/D/L record. I would use something like the ELO-based system used for CR, except with a high adjustment factor (i.e. make it change rapidly, to account for a team's changing fortunes relatively quickly). At zero games, I would actually initialise the value of "TR" with the coach's own "BWR". This is partly to counter the strategy of (for instance) repeatedly creating new Amazon teams then retiring them when their "TR" gets too high, and partly just a reasonable thing to do anyway.

I would then match-make based on a combination of TR and TV, though primarily TR. Including TV though will avoid having huge TV differences too often, which I think is worthwhile as good as inducements are. The other is to more rapidly adjust to teams getting beat up - TR will still take time to adjust while TV drops immediately.

I would also allow any and all games to be played in preference to no game. If there's only two teams in the box, then (unless arranged games at quiet times starts to become a problem or something) let them play, whoever they are. TV and TR would be used to choose who plays, but not to limit it.

Personally I think this combination captures the best elements of all of the above ideas. But I welcome any informed and sensible opinions to the contrary.
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Comments
Posted by Hitonagashi on 2012-11-06 04:59:33
The problem with W/D/L is it drives the good coaches away from the Box.

There are two types of high win percentage: Skilled players, and min maxing/sweetspotting teams. Let's define good loosely, as 160+ CR (if CR meant anything, the point where you don't make mistakes much).

I don't mind playing good players (in fact, I love it)...but, there simply aren't enough 'good' players in the Box to activate at the same time. What did happen last time this was tried, and what would happen again is that skilled coaches would repeatedly get paired against newbs with minmaxesque teams, which is just flat out not fun.

I reckon I have about at 70% chance to win against Harpo (as our example of choice from the thread)...but the key thing is, because of the way he plays, it has *no* bearing how well or poorly I play. Either he'll get lucky and take enough of my players out such that I can't function, or I'll win. It's a waste of my free time for me, because there's no excitement from winning (as I expect to), and frustration from losing (because he got lucky). If I had that on a regular basis, I'd leave the division.

It also means that instead of getting paired against a minmax team that tries to win, a new coach will instead only meet the minmax that ignores the ball (which is arguably the more annoying type to play). I don't see how that's any better.

Posted by harvestmouse on 2012-11-06 08:57:34
I agree (I must have said it a hundred times now) that W/L record is the way to go. However I don't think you can do it, on that just alone. The major important factor to add to this is 'changes in TV' dramatic loss in TV should be compensated for, as well as rises (skills and new players). Also there is no point taken the whole history of the W/L record. This would just punish old successful teams. Recent form is all that is important.

With this system, Harpo's team wouldn't be what it was within 3 or 4 games and most likely he'd have to find a new system to suck from the innocent.

As for good coaches being bored of playing better coaches all the time (in my mind, this translates to: unhappy about not winning 75% of box games) I have 2 things to say.
1. Tough, welcome to the life of the average community member.
2. Success needs to be rewarded, not left in the boring tread water state it is now. Championship, badges, awards, faction and division/promotion systems (that don't limit on match making) will all help there.

The point about not wanting to gain ff (if ff was involved in match making) is a good one, however is it any different now? Personally I think with CRP in general, gaining ff isn't great. If used, I don't think it would take the community long (especially if partnered by a warning notice when making teams) to make 0 ff teams.

So to conclude, my blackbox match making formula would be.

*Mainly the recent W/D/L record. Probably last 10, with older games have less of an impact on the formula.
*Changes in TV (beat downs and new players/skills) would affect the formula, with larger changes having more of an impact.
*I'd like to see what adding FF (but not as important as WDL) to the formula would do. It wouldn't be exactly the same, and shouldn't be as important, however FF does the calculation for itself. However it could be a red herring.
*Positive feedback for the successful teams, to prevent them from leaving due to harder matches. Give awards, badges, a ranking and split teams into divisions (that doesn't affect match making).
Posted by Garion on 2012-11-06 10:07:38
gameas played for me, all the way. makes perfect sense to stop teams that have played hundreds of games playing teams that have played 2.

Also you say there is nothing to stop people continuously playing undead or zons over and over and retiring after 20 games. There is nothing that stops them doing that now if they want to.

There is nothing that stops them doing that it any of those systems.

Yeah I get that it would make it harder for teams re-building, but it wouldn't make it impossible. It would just take them longer to get games, but they would get those games agaisnt other5 beat up teams which seems pretty fair to me.

Some say it would reduce the overall number of games. but I'd be fine with that if the games i wasnt getting were onces against min maxers.
Posted by Underworlder on 2012-11-06 10:33:41
I do not minmax (as my 2000TV nurgle without a single MB all over the team can suggest) but I really won't like a system that reduce my chance to get a game, no matter the team and the coach

I do not like minmax, but there's nothing intrinsical wrong in doing it

Just my 2 cents
Posted by koadah on 2012-11-06 10:56:20
heh heh. Can't believe I'm mostly agreeing with HarvestMouse. ;)

But if you are not mainly matching on TV then I don't think that your changes are enough.

Elves, skaven, amazons, lizards, undead etc are already the winningest teams in the Box. Yet we still get large numbers of mutation bashers striving to be high TV ultimate killers.

IMO if you don't also add a CPOMB nerf people eventually get fed up with getting matched up with the very nasty big teams. Even if they can beat them. I think that would be a bigger deterrent than the current min/maxers.

Now, here's the thing. Though it isn't fashionable to say it. As an amazon & human coach I actually like POMB and I like the Box. There is a nice zone between the min/maxers and the ultra bashers where people play good, hard, uncompromising ball.

So, IMO HarvestMouse's changes + a CPOMB nerf would create a very good division. But this reminds me a bit of the Alien movies. Whenever I've been asked I've always thought that Alien was by far the best movie. But when it comes down to which one have I watched the most, Aliens wins by a mile.

So, I'm wondering. Do Box's numbers hold up because a lot of people who don't post much on the forums actually like the Wild West?

How many of those people who complain so bitterly about the Box would actually come and play it if it changed? Would they still be put off by CPOMBers, agile blodgers, slow coaches, quiet coaches etc etc?

I think that the real problem is that we only have the numbers to run one Box when really we could do with two.

It's a tough decision to change something that is doing well and looks as though it will continue doing well.

If you folks all jump ship to Ranked then it will be an easy decision. But maybe most of those people who want to jump have already jumped.
Posted by Irgy on 2012-11-06 13:53:18
Hitonagashi - I was going to add this but the blog was too long already. What I mean by including both is to have a penalty for a mismatch in each. What you're talking about is a single number combining TR and TV. The difference is if there's a high TR difference and a high TV difference, I would penalise both, rather than considering one to compensate for the other. So good coaches wouldn't be matched up at all, they'd just be more likely to play other good coaches at the same TV.

Harvestmouse - your suggestion is basically in the same space as my thinking, just different details. I imagine Christer would want to implement something as simple as possible, both for the sake of his effort (in tuning more so than coding) and so that other people can understand it.

Koadah - My suggestion doesn't end up being a huge shift from TV matching, it just removes the hard constraint and adds a separate TR penalty. Hopefully it won't change the things that are good, just mitigate some of the bad.
Posted by happygrue on 2012-11-06 14:55:24
Great post Igvy, I can't understand why it's rated 3 so far... That is a very good summary of how hard it is to matchmake. :\
Posted by happygrue on 2012-11-06 16:51:24
So I think the thing that is still missing from the above is what *I* personally think is the greatest thing the box has going for it: simple variety. You should just be able to click and get a match vs a refreshingly wide range of races. That is currently not happening as well as it could be. I have thought about it, but I don't have any suggestions yet for how to make that part of the matching better (without sacrificing something else or being too complex). But I think if that factor were included in the matchmaking higher TV games would be much more enjoyable for a wide range of coaches. I still enjoy running a team up there, but when it is beaten back by clawpomber after clawpomber sometimes I switch to something else for a bit before venturing back. If there were real diversity up there that was encouraged by the scheduler than I would certainly play up there more.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2012-11-06 17:28:05
A few ways to do this that aren't dependent on any one mechanic:

1) a cocktail. Try to match teams by applying a value for every factor you want to track (you can break it all down into one common new currency or just use gold; just like football, you can key around the defender/statistic that you have the hardest time blocking, or in this case the one that behaves the most like a currency anyway).
Some factors you might want to weigh in:
Outcome of last match
W% in last 5 matches, counting matches not yet played as losses
(W% in last 10 matches or FF) for teams with more than 10 matches
TV
# Matches (use big, broad categories, and weight them heavy, so that teams with 50 matches have no problem seeing teams with 500 matches, but teams with 5 matches will get neither if possible)

2) Instead of going straight for the "perfect" cocktail, you could design multiple pickers, don't tell anybody when each will be in use, and change it up. Keep it going for a month or two, and establish some mechanism so coaches could see if they got their games in Box Formula A, B, C, or D. Then see what the feedback is, and whether it jives with what the stats say. You're guaranteed to get a matchup that looks "fair" based on this or that or the other thing, but which one? Who knows?
Posted by Underworlder on 2012-11-06 20:16:50
I like the idea of "random picker"
A TV based, a W/D/L based, a #games based, a CR based, and each "draw" one of those three is randomly choosed for the matches...
Fun... but I don't know if we'll have more or less matches that way... I fear a lot of people don't like to not know how it work
Posted by uuni on 2012-11-06 20:41:21
I think the current TV gravitating pairing is good. Personally, I am in favor of BillBrasky's initiative to loosen then 15% gradually. Perhaps 20% would be a good first step.

I would really love to see a 3000k Dark Elf team to face a 3000k Chaos team. Similarly, I would like to see a 600k Amazon team to face a 610k Norse team. Neither of these is currently possible, because the scheduler in practice cannot offer such matches. I think the gathering of TV against ClawPoMb and Spiralling Expenses is an interesting game in itself.

Widening the hard limit of box would allow more games and allow to use the new stars and inducements in normal games. Majority of played matches would still be as current.
Posted by Underworlder on 2012-11-07 11:20:53
600k teams should not extist at all