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2010-08-30 09:16:44
25 votes, rating 4.5
25 votes, rating 4.5
Optional skills, LRB 6
A recent thread has made me consider which skills in LRB6.0 it is beneficial for you to choose not to use. I've gone through and thought about each skill. I'm making a blog about it because it's a fair bit of effort and it would otherwise languish as a reply to a thread somewhere. I'm feeling pretty pleased with it, but if there's something I haven't thought of please comment and I'll update it.
First, just some assumptions I'm using. If your opponent could negate, or even could have negated, your choice not to use the skill, then I see no point in letting you choose not to use it. For example, you can choose not to use tackle, but they could then choose not to use dodge anyway and counter it, so why bother giving the option. Similarly, you could choose not to use Tentacles, but they could have chosen not to try and move away in the first place. I assume that if the opponent wants to move away then you want to stop them. If both coaches have a different view on whether it's a good idea to move away or not, then I could imagine cases where someone wouldn't use tentacles. However, I don't think it's worth complicating the client just to allow for this sort of silliness.
As another example, suppose your opponent makes a -2d block against a player with Foul Appearance. I assume that if they want to make the block, then you want to prevent it. Certainly there's cases where you wouldn't, especially if it was a misclick, but I still don't think the client needs to account for those scenarios. Especially since the cost will include annoying pop-up questions for everyone.
In short, what I consider here is situations where someone might choose not to use a skill even under the assumption of optimal play from both sides. That assumption also cuts out cases of intentional bad play, collusion and playing mind games - people can still do all those things of course, but the client doesn't need to support them doing so.
Note however that there are some cases where collusion is justified, as players can have different goals. The outcome of the game has multiple facets, including three overall results (win, draw, loss) and various side effects such as SPPs, fan factor modifiers, and player injuries. This can lead to cases where certain actions are in the interests of both players, and this can in turn lead to unusual choices when it comes to not using skills. Despite this, I personally don't think the client should need to account for the sorts of choices made for the sake of cooperative (or semi-cooperative) play, and as such what I've written below assumes no cooperation.
Finally, also note that for skills which let you reroll an action (catch, sure hands etc.) I take the default, not-asking-a-question behaviour to be to reroll failures but not successes. The alternative is to ask the player whether to reroll both a success and a failure.
So, I've been through all the skills in LRB6.0, and broken them into a number of categories:
Negatraits
So many of the "Extraordinary" category of skills are so clearly not optional that I am currently wonderwing whether this entire category is intended to be not optional. For instance, all the following are penalties, and surely you can't get out of them by "not using the skills":
Always Hungry, Anomisity, Blood Lust, Bone Head, Decay, Loner, No Hands, Really Stupid, Secret Weapon, Stunty (passing and casualty rolls), Titchy (no dodging tackle zones), Wild Animal, Take Root.
Not optional
The following skills are not penalties as such but are also quite clearly or quite explicitly not optional:
Ball and Chain, Chainsaw, Frenzy
Choose to use
The following skills are all ones which you have to actively choose when to use in the first place. So they are already implicitly optional.
Bombardier, Hypnotic Gaze, Throw Team-Mate + Right Stuff, Stab, Stakes, Hail Mary Pass, Pass Block, Multiple Block, Leap, Piling On, Pro, Sprint, Jump-up.
The above categories are quite straightforward and so I just listed the skills. From now on though I'll give a few thoughts on why each skill is in each category.
Always want to use
The following are skill for which I cannot think of a reason why you wouldn't want to use them:
* Fan Favourite - I'm not even sure this is optional, but would you not want +1 fame?
* Nurgle's Rot - If you don't want the free player, just retire it.
* Dauntless, Guard (when blocking), Horns - Higher strength in a block gives strictly more choice for you (or less for your opponent), so even if you were trying to knock yourself down these skill will help you do it.
* Fend - The opponent always has the option not to follow up anyway.
* Tackle - There are times when you want to not use tackle, but in those cases your opponent could simply choose not to use dodge, so we might as well make this compulsary.
* Foul Appearance - The opponent chose to block, so invoking optimal play working assumption you would want to deny them.
* Claw, Mighty Blow - I can't see any circumstances (short of excluded cases of colluding with your opponent), where you wouldn't want to cause more damage.
* Leader - You don't need to use the reroll if you don't want to anyway. I would also assume the client should always use the leader reroll first by default.
* Safe Throw - The opponent could have chosen not to intercept.
* Very Long Legs - You could have chosen not to intercept.
* Tentacles - Your opponent could have chosen not to move away. The only forced movement I can think of are via frenzy and ball&chain, and tentacles do not work in either of these cases.
Calculatable Circumstances
These are skills for which there are some circumstances where the client should ask, and some where it does not need to, and the client should be easily capable of distinguishing between these situations.
* Dirty Player, Guard (when used to assist a foul) - The client should ask specifically when the player also has Sneaky Git, and you roll a double that is one off breaking armour without using dirty player. In that case you have a choice to use this skill and break armour but get sent off, or not break it and use the Sneaky Git skill to stay on the field. Otherwise always use this skill for the same reasons as claw and mighty blow.
* Diving Catch (for catching nearby balls) - When two or more players from the same team could both use it, the player needs to choose which will use it. Otherwise always use it, except as discussed in the "Optional Questions" section below.
* Wrestle - If one player has block and the other does not, then the player without block wants to wrestle while the player with block does not. There are exceptions, but these are handled in the same way as cases of not using block and dodge, as discussed further below. If both players have wrestle, then by the optimal-play assumption one of them should choose to use it. In other cases however, it should always ask, as there are a number of reasons why you might or might not want use this skill in these cases.
* Grab, Sidestep - Normally it's strictly more choice for you (or less for your opponent in the case where these two meet each other), so no need to ask. The exception comes with chain pushes and crowd surfs. In these cases it may be desirable to turn off grab or sidestep to force the chain push or crowd surf.
Always Ask
For these skills, I think the player should always be asked whether to reroll. In some cases (such as stand firm) people may wish to turn this off, but I think it should at least by default always ask.
* Diving Tackle, Shadowing - No change from the lrb4 client.
* Break Tackle - There's enough complication with this skill that I actually think it's worth asking all the time. An example where you would not use it is when you are making two dodges, and the first is less difficult (for instance dodging away from a marker then into a cage). In this case you often want to reroll the easier dodge and save break tackle for the harder dodge.
* Dump-Off - Plenty of cases where using this might be a bad idea.
* Juggernaut - Obviously if you have Block and Juggernaut there's a choice. That alone would just put it in the "Calculatable Circumstances" category, however I'd say there are also other times when you wouldn't use it because a both-down result may be preferable.
* Kick - The biggest benefit this skill gives is a choice between two landing locations for the ball.
* Kick-Off Return - Fairly clear cut to me.
* Stand Firm - I think there's a lot of situations where you might not want to use this.
* Pass - As per the current behaviour, by default ask the player whether to reroll fumbles and inaccurate passes as they may prefer one to the other.
Know in advance
The following are skills for which there are cases when you wouldn't use them, but you always know ahead of time (and during your turn) that such a case might be about to occur. So, the client simply needs a way of temporarily switching these skills to ones it asks about. This minimises the number of popup windows in most cases, without reducing people's choices in the more obscure cases.
* Accurate, Pass (on success), Strong Arm, Nerves of Steel (when passing) - Sometimes a fumble is better than an inaccurate pass. Also there are rare circumstances where you might want an inaccurate rather than an accurate pass - for instance a desperate play to get a ball further than the maximum passing range. Both of these situations are known in advance of making the pass. One exception is when using dump-off. A way to fully support these being optional (although I admit it's a little ugly) would be to have three options when asking to use dump-off - "yes", "no" and "yes and make passing skills optional"
* Sneaky Git - You may want to get a player sent off to protect them. You'll know that before you make the foul
* Strip Ball - Sometimes you might want the ball to be dropped from a certain position, so you let them hang on to it for now. You'll know that before you make the block
* Big Hand, Sure Hands - Normally if you move the player onto the ball, you don't want fumble it. However, imagine you are going for a throw team mate one turner, and none of your players have quite enough movement to pick up the ball and hand off to the thrown player. It might be possible to fumble the ball to a player near the ball, who will then effectively have two extra movement to get the ball and handoff to the player about to be thrown. However you know in advance that you might want to fail a pickup
* Sure Feet - You may wish to fail a GFI to put a prone player in a specific location.
* Two Heads, Dodge (while moving part), Stunty (ignore tackle zones when dodging part), Titchy (+1 to dodges part) - There are rare scenarios where a prone player on a specific square is desirable. Prone players are harder to move away than standing ones, and may be used to block key squares from the opponent's movement.
Optionally Ask
The final group are the skills which you almost always want to use, but in some rare circumstances may not. These circumstances are not easily identified by the client, and may occur during your opponent's turn when you don't have time to disable the skills temporarily. These are skills which advanced users may choose to make optional, as long as they are happy to deal with the increase in popup windows they need to respond to. However, many people would be happy to just leave these as always used, which should be the default.
* Regeneration - If your last player on the pitch gets Badly Hurt, you may prefer not to regenerate that result, to avoid the player landing back on the pitch where it could get gang-fouled and killed instead.
* Thick Skull - Similar to regenerate, sometimes it's better to leave the pitch. I'm not sure if this skill is meant to be optional anyway though.
* Dodge (block dice part), Block - Most of the time you don't want your player to go down. However, if you're defending against a chain-push one turn touchdown attempt, in danger of going into the crowd, or in danger of being pushed next to a claw + might blow + piling on monster, then you're better off going down. Or, if you have jump up (and high armour!) you may prefer to fall somewhere that's in the way for your opponent. Although most of these examples involve a pushback, and therefore apply more obviously to dodge, they can apply to block if you're worried about a second player pushing you into a bad position when the first one failed.
* Wrestle (against block) - If the opponent is trying to get out of a bad position (e.g. on the sideline) and would prefer to go down than stay standing where they are, then you may choose not to use wrestle, even though they have block and you don't. While you do then have to make an armour roll yourself, you also force them to either stay standing, or make an armour roll themselves as well - and cause a turnover if it's their turn.
* Diving Catch, Catch, Nerves of Steel (when catching), Extra Arms - Most of the time you only reroll failed catches. However, there are cases where you don't want to catch the ball at all. A common example is when a player who has already moved catches a bouncing ball, you may prefer he fumble it so that a player who hasn't moved can pick it up and pass it - especially if it's the last turn of the half!
* Disturbing Presence - Any situations where one player wouldn't use a skill like Accurate or Big Hand and the like, their opponent similarly may not want to use Disturbing Presence for similar reasons.
* Prehensile Tail - The opponent may in rare cases wish to fail their dodge in order to place a prone player in a specific location, as prone players are harder to shift than standing ones.
EDIT Here's a list of edits made to account for some of the comments made. Thanks to all the helpful comments:
1. Grab/Sidestep moved to calculatable circumstances, because of the possibility of disabling them to force a chain push or crowd surf.
2. Wrestle rule changed to "Ask unless one player has block and the other does not", to cover the case of always using block in preference to wrestle against an unskilled player. Also added a mention of the case of both players having wrestle.
3. Made specific mention of guard against a foul.
4. Moved the dodge (on movement) related skills as well as sure feet to other sections, to account for cases where you may wish to place a prone player in a specific location.
5. Added a discussion on valid reasons for collusion.
First, just some assumptions I'm using. If your opponent could negate, or even could have negated, your choice not to use the skill, then I see no point in letting you choose not to use it. For example, you can choose not to use tackle, but they could then choose not to use dodge anyway and counter it, so why bother giving the option. Similarly, you could choose not to use Tentacles, but they could have chosen not to try and move away in the first place. I assume that if the opponent wants to move away then you want to stop them. If both coaches have a different view on whether it's a good idea to move away or not, then I could imagine cases where someone wouldn't use tentacles. However, I don't think it's worth complicating the client just to allow for this sort of silliness.
As another example, suppose your opponent makes a -2d block against a player with Foul Appearance. I assume that if they want to make the block, then you want to prevent it. Certainly there's cases where you wouldn't, especially if it was a misclick, but I still don't think the client needs to account for those scenarios. Especially since the cost will include annoying pop-up questions for everyone.
In short, what I consider here is situations where someone might choose not to use a skill even under the assumption of optimal play from both sides. That assumption also cuts out cases of intentional bad play, collusion and playing mind games - people can still do all those things of course, but the client doesn't need to support them doing so.
Note however that there are some cases where collusion is justified, as players can have different goals. The outcome of the game has multiple facets, including three overall results (win, draw, loss) and various side effects such as SPPs, fan factor modifiers, and player injuries. This can lead to cases where certain actions are in the interests of both players, and this can in turn lead to unusual choices when it comes to not using skills. Despite this, I personally don't think the client should need to account for the sorts of choices made for the sake of cooperative (or semi-cooperative) play, and as such what I've written below assumes no cooperation.
Finally, also note that for skills which let you reroll an action (catch, sure hands etc.) I take the default, not-asking-a-question behaviour to be to reroll failures but not successes. The alternative is to ask the player whether to reroll both a success and a failure.
So, I've been through all the skills in LRB6.0, and broken them into a number of categories:
Negatraits
So many of the "Extraordinary" category of skills are so clearly not optional that I am currently wonderwing whether this entire category is intended to be not optional. For instance, all the following are penalties, and surely you can't get out of them by "not using the skills":
Always Hungry, Anomisity, Blood Lust, Bone Head, Decay, Loner, No Hands, Really Stupid, Secret Weapon, Stunty (passing and casualty rolls), Titchy (no dodging tackle zones), Wild Animal, Take Root.
Not optional
The following skills are not penalties as such but are also quite clearly or quite explicitly not optional:
Ball and Chain, Chainsaw, Frenzy
Choose to use
The following skills are all ones which you have to actively choose when to use in the first place. So they are already implicitly optional.
Bombardier, Hypnotic Gaze, Throw Team-Mate + Right Stuff, Stab, Stakes, Hail Mary Pass, Pass Block, Multiple Block, Leap, Piling On, Pro, Sprint, Jump-up.
The above categories are quite straightforward and so I just listed the skills. From now on though I'll give a few thoughts on why each skill is in each category.
Always want to use
The following are skill for which I cannot think of a reason why you wouldn't want to use them:
* Fan Favourite - I'm not even sure this is optional, but would you not want +1 fame?
* Nurgle's Rot - If you don't want the free player, just retire it.
* Dauntless, Guard (when blocking), Horns - Higher strength in a block gives strictly more choice for you (or less for your opponent), so even if you were trying to knock yourself down these skill will help you do it.
* Fend - The opponent always has the option not to follow up anyway.
* Tackle - There are times when you want to not use tackle, but in those cases your opponent could simply choose not to use dodge, so we might as well make this compulsary.
* Foul Appearance - The opponent chose to block, so invoking optimal play working assumption you would want to deny them.
* Claw, Mighty Blow - I can't see any circumstances (short of excluded cases of colluding with your opponent), where you wouldn't want to cause more damage.
* Leader - You don't need to use the reroll if you don't want to anyway. I would also assume the client should always use the leader reroll first by default.
* Safe Throw - The opponent could have chosen not to intercept.
* Very Long Legs - You could have chosen not to intercept.
* Tentacles - Your opponent could have chosen not to move away. The only forced movement I can think of are via frenzy and ball&chain, and tentacles do not work in either of these cases.
Calculatable Circumstances
These are skills for which there are some circumstances where the client should ask, and some where it does not need to, and the client should be easily capable of distinguishing between these situations.
* Dirty Player, Guard (when used to assist a foul) - The client should ask specifically when the player also has Sneaky Git, and you roll a double that is one off breaking armour without using dirty player. In that case you have a choice to use this skill and break armour but get sent off, or not break it and use the Sneaky Git skill to stay on the field. Otherwise always use this skill for the same reasons as claw and mighty blow.
* Diving Catch (for catching nearby balls) - When two or more players from the same team could both use it, the player needs to choose which will use it. Otherwise always use it, except as discussed in the "Optional Questions" section below.
* Wrestle - If one player has block and the other does not, then the player without block wants to wrestle while the player with block does not. There are exceptions, but these are handled in the same way as cases of not using block and dodge, as discussed further below. If both players have wrestle, then by the optimal-play assumption one of them should choose to use it. In other cases however, it should always ask, as there are a number of reasons why you might or might not want use this skill in these cases.
* Grab, Sidestep - Normally it's strictly more choice for you (or less for your opponent in the case where these two meet each other), so no need to ask. The exception comes with chain pushes and crowd surfs. In these cases it may be desirable to turn off grab or sidestep to force the chain push or crowd surf.
Always Ask
For these skills, I think the player should always be asked whether to reroll. In some cases (such as stand firm) people may wish to turn this off, but I think it should at least by default always ask.
* Diving Tackle, Shadowing - No change from the lrb4 client.
* Break Tackle - There's enough complication with this skill that I actually think it's worth asking all the time. An example where you would not use it is when you are making two dodges, and the first is less difficult (for instance dodging away from a marker then into a cage). In this case you often want to reroll the easier dodge and save break tackle for the harder dodge.
* Dump-Off - Plenty of cases where using this might be a bad idea.
* Juggernaut - Obviously if you have Block and Juggernaut there's a choice. That alone would just put it in the "Calculatable Circumstances" category, however I'd say there are also other times when you wouldn't use it because a both-down result may be preferable.
* Kick - The biggest benefit this skill gives is a choice between two landing locations for the ball.
* Kick-Off Return - Fairly clear cut to me.
* Stand Firm - I think there's a lot of situations where you might not want to use this.
* Pass - As per the current behaviour, by default ask the player whether to reroll fumbles and inaccurate passes as they may prefer one to the other.
Know in advance
The following are skills for which there are cases when you wouldn't use them, but you always know ahead of time (and during your turn) that such a case might be about to occur. So, the client simply needs a way of temporarily switching these skills to ones it asks about. This minimises the number of popup windows in most cases, without reducing people's choices in the more obscure cases.
* Accurate, Pass (on success), Strong Arm, Nerves of Steel (when passing) - Sometimes a fumble is better than an inaccurate pass. Also there are rare circumstances where you might want an inaccurate rather than an accurate pass - for instance a desperate play to get a ball further than the maximum passing range. Both of these situations are known in advance of making the pass. One exception is when using dump-off. A way to fully support these being optional (although I admit it's a little ugly) would be to have three options when asking to use dump-off - "yes", "no" and "yes and make passing skills optional"
* Sneaky Git - You may want to get a player sent off to protect them. You'll know that before you make the foul
* Strip Ball - Sometimes you might want the ball to be dropped from a certain position, so you let them hang on to it for now. You'll know that before you make the block
* Big Hand, Sure Hands - Normally if you move the player onto the ball, you don't want fumble it. However, imagine you are going for a throw team mate one turner, and none of your players have quite enough movement to pick up the ball and hand off to the thrown player. It might be possible to fumble the ball to a player near the ball, who will then effectively have two extra movement to get the ball and handoff to the player about to be thrown. However you know in advance that you might want to fail a pickup
* Sure Feet - You may wish to fail a GFI to put a prone player in a specific location.
* Two Heads, Dodge (while moving part), Stunty (ignore tackle zones when dodging part), Titchy (+1 to dodges part) - There are rare scenarios where a prone player on a specific square is desirable. Prone players are harder to move away than standing ones, and may be used to block key squares from the opponent's movement.
Optionally Ask
The final group are the skills which you almost always want to use, but in some rare circumstances may not. These circumstances are not easily identified by the client, and may occur during your opponent's turn when you don't have time to disable the skills temporarily. These are skills which advanced users may choose to make optional, as long as they are happy to deal with the increase in popup windows they need to respond to. However, many people would be happy to just leave these as always used, which should be the default.
* Regeneration - If your last player on the pitch gets Badly Hurt, you may prefer not to regenerate that result, to avoid the player landing back on the pitch where it could get gang-fouled and killed instead.
* Thick Skull - Similar to regenerate, sometimes it's better to leave the pitch. I'm not sure if this skill is meant to be optional anyway though.
* Dodge (block dice part), Block - Most of the time you don't want your player to go down. However, if you're defending against a chain-push one turn touchdown attempt, in danger of going into the crowd, or in danger of being pushed next to a claw + might blow + piling on monster, then you're better off going down. Or, if you have jump up (and high armour!) you may prefer to fall somewhere that's in the way for your opponent. Although most of these examples involve a pushback, and therefore apply more obviously to dodge, they can apply to block if you're worried about a second player pushing you into a bad position when the first one failed.
* Wrestle (against block) - If the opponent is trying to get out of a bad position (e.g. on the sideline) and would prefer to go down than stay standing where they are, then you may choose not to use wrestle, even though they have block and you don't. While you do then have to make an armour roll yourself, you also force them to either stay standing, or make an armour roll themselves as well - and cause a turnover if it's their turn.
* Diving Catch, Catch, Nerves of Steel (when catching), Extra Arms - Most of the time you only reroll failed catches. However, there are cases where you don't want to catch the ball at all. A common example is when a player who has already moved catches a bouncing ball, you may prefer he fumble it so that a player who hasn't moved can pick it up and pass it - especially if it's the last turn of the half!
* Disturbing Presence - Any situations where one player wouldn't use a skill like Accurate or Big Hand and the like, their opponent similarly may not want to use Disturbing Presence for similar reasons.
* Prehensile Tail - The opponent may in rare cases wish to fail their dodge in order to place a prone player in a specific location, as prone players are harder to shift than standing ones.
EDIT Here's a list of edits made to account for some of the comments made. Thanks to all the helpful comments:
1. Grab/Sidestep moved to calculatable circumstances, because of the possibility of disabling them to force a chain push or crowd surf.
2. Wrestle rule changed to "Ask unless one player has block and the other does not", to cover the case of always using block in preference to wrestle against an unskilled player. Also added a mention of the case of both players having wrestle.
3. Made specific mention of guard against a foul.
4. Moved the dodge (on movement) related skills as well as sure feet to other sections, to account for cases where you may wish to place a prone player in a specific location.
5. Added a discussion on valid reasons for collusion.
Comments
Posted by Barre on 2010-08-30 10:07:36
I haven't given this a full read yet, but great work Irgy.
However, on the Optionals at the end, Regeneration and Thick skull, it seems illogical that something could choose not to Regenerate, or like wise something could not "make it's skull thinner" therefore choosing not to thickskull. So these choices should not be optional IMO.
I have not followed any rules discussion which may have elaborated these skills, so you can treat my opinion as such.
However, on the Optionals at the end, Regeneration and Thick skull, it seems illogical that something could choose not to Regenerate, or like wise something could not "make it's skull thinner" therefore choosing not to thickskull. So these choices should not be optional IMO.
I have not followed any rules discussion which may have elaborated these skills, so you can treat my opinion as such.
Posted by Calthor on 2010-08-30 10:42:24
Concerning 'Dodge (while moving)' and similar:
Yes, I can think of a situation when I would want to fail that roll. If I'm nearly 100% positive my player will be hit by a Piling On, Mighty Blow, Claw monstrosity, going to the ground is good for player survivability. Especially if I am playing with a high AV plus Jump Up player, this is not such a bad idea in some (relatively rare) situations.
Yes, I can think of a situation when I would want to fail that roll. If I'm nearly 100% positive my player will be hit by a Piling On, Mighty Blow, Claw monstrosity, going to the ground is good for player survivability. Especially if I am playing with a high AV plus Jump Up player, this is not such a bad idea in some (relatively rare) situations.
Posted by Lofwyr on 2010-08-30 11:15:30
Great work, just one thing concerning grab:
If you want to do a chainpush (maybe for a oneturnscore) you don't want to use grab, because with grab if the 3 normal squares are occupied, you have to use one of the other squares.
If you want to do a chainpush (maybe for a oneturnscore) you don't want to use grab, because with grab if the 3 normal squares are occupied, you have to use one of the other squares.
Posted by SillySod on 2010-08-30 11:18:26
I... er... its a big effort but quite a few of these skill categories are wrong :/
Posted by uzkulak on 2010-08-30 13:11:50
Yeah, Im afraid there are a few of these I dont agree with either - such as sidestep, tackle and diving catch.
However, this obviously took a long time and plenty of thought to do, so I will rate you a 6 anyway ;0>
However, this obviously took a long time and plenty of thought to do, so I will rate you a 6 anyway ;0>
Posted by Wreckage on 2010-08-30 13:22:31
Hm... I'd like to adress the main idea of the topic: The where to use thing....
I think you pointed more or less correctly out that if somebody uses tackle the other side would likely not use dodge either. The only scenarios where it could be relevant is in crowdpushes and one turn scores anyways (and some even more very very rare other occasions). And usually the interest of one coach will be the opposite mirror interest of the other coach.
I liked to have the ability to switch skills off... but i think you make a very good point about not allowing to switch tackle of.
Now the problem is that coaches interests usually don't mirror each other at all. I think that comes perfectly visible when you attempt to make the same example for Fend. Often Coaches can have simply the same interest. That may be, because one side doesn't want to get hurt, while the other side wants to win. One side may want the other side to score to be able to get another offense to win the game while the other coach might want to win the game too, being 1 TD behind. Resulting in both coaches wanting him score. Last but not least there can also be a differnce in perception of the game and interests can be also focused on different strategical aspects.
I think in case of Fend it is particulary fatal, because I believe a Follow Up is in generally disadvantagous for the one following up. The other player will be able to block him likewise and I normally don't want to trick my opponent on the chance to exactly do that.
My main argument of being allowed to turn off skills has always concerned Stand Firm and I believe the problem here to be on a similar angle. Player positioning is the quite vital essence of the game that decides the difficulty of all actions happening on the field.
I may follow up on an opponent in the believe to have to put a tacklezone on him while the other side is anticipating an important vital opening in the defense to exploit... endless variations of events are thinkable how Fend may be not wanted to be used by both sides.
Instead andd this is I believe an acceptable solution for only this particular case is:
To make the following up coach normally make his decision to follow up or not. He now has to make a choice: Does he want to put a stop into the flow of the game by requesting by his opponent if he is allowed to do that or does he rather want to just stand back and continue playing since he can't follow up anyways.... I think this solution would suit such a situation the best....
As for dodge my ENTIRE argument for such skills was always just that it should be possible to turn them permanently off or on during the own turn. I think it is really vital for a game like this to let too much accuracy not come in the way of the flow of the game. On the other hand should the very essence of skill not be destroyed like the ability to decide positions when using a positioning skill. They are vital for the game.
I think you pointed more or less correctly out that if somebody uses tackle the other side would likely not use dodge either. The only scenarios where it could be relevant is in crowdpushes and one turn scores anyways (and some even more very very rare other occasions). And usually the interest of one coach will be the opposite mirror interest of the other coach.
I liked to have the ability to switch skills off... but i think you make a very good point about not allowing to switch tackle of.
Now the problem is that coaches interests usually don't mirror each other at all. I think that comes perfectly visible when you attempt to make the same example for Fend. Often Coaches can have simply the same interest. That may be, because one side doesn't want to get hurt, while the other side wants to win. One side may want the other side to score to be able to get another offense to win the game while the other coach might want to win the game too, being 1 TD behind. Resulting in both coaches wanting him score. Last but not least there can also be a differnce in perception of the game and interests can be also focused on different strategical aspects.
I think in case of Fend it is particulary fatal, because I believe a Follow Up is in generally disadvantagous for the one following up. The other player will be able to block him likewise and I normally don't want to trick my opponent on the chance to exactly do that.
My main argument of being allowed to turn off skills has always concerned Stand Firm and I believe the problem here to be on a similar angle. Player positioning is the quite vital essence of the game that decides the difficulty of all actions happening on the field.
I may follow up on an opponent in the believe to have to put a tacklezone on him while the other side is anticipating an important vital opening in the defense to exploit... endless variations of events are thinkable how Fend may be not wanted to be used by both sides.
Instead andd this is I believe an acceptable solution for only this particular case is:
To make the following up coach normally make his decision to follow up or not. He now has to make a choice: Does he want to put a stop into the flow of the game by requesting by his opponent if he is allowed to do that or does he rather want to just stand back and continue playing since he can't follow up anyways.... I think this solution would suit such a situation the best....
As for dodge my ENTIRE argument for such skills was always just that it should be possible to turn them permanently off or on during the own turn. I think it is really vital for a game like this to let too much accuracy not come in the way of the flow of the game. On the other hand should the very essence of skill not be destroyed like the ability to decide positions when using a positioning skill. They are vital for the game.
Posted by Wreckage on 2010-08-30 13:50:34
Oh I see that you added Break Tackle to that optionally ask list: I really have doubts concerning this... people may find it problematic but it usually plays along a well autmated course.
Id vote to default switch it off but allowing to activate it.
As for your enitre Optionally Ask list I'd vote to allow to switch them on or off but to never ask for them in the passive turn because they simply get too much in the way of the game flow.
(Except Wrestle maybe what would be better off in the Caculatable Circumstances category)
Id vote to default switch it off but allowing to activate it.
As for your enitre Optionally Ask list I'd vote to allow to switch them on or off but to never ask for them in the passive turn because they simply get too much in the way of the game flow.
(Except Wrestle maybe what would be better off in the Caculatable Circumstances category)
Posted by Wreckage on 2010-08-30 14:02:23
...Wrestle circumstances... Sry for still talking :)...
Attacker - Defender:
Block, Wrestle - Block, Wrestle : Now seriously... ask on that one because i don't know
Wrestle - Block, Wrestle: Clear use wrestle for attacker
Block, Wrestle - Wrestle: Clear use Wrestle for Defender
none- Block, Wrestle: Clear use Block
Block, Wrestle-none: Clear use Block
Block - Wrestle : Clear use Wrestle
Wrestle - Block: Clear use Wrestle
none - Wrestle : Don't use skill to cause a turnover. Maybe ask.
Wrestle- none: Use Wrestle. But maybe ask.
Attacker - Defender:
Block, Wrestle - Block, Wrestle : Now seriously... ask on that one because i don't know
Wrestle - Block, Wrestle: Clear use wrestle for attacker
Block, Wrestle - Wrestle: Clear use Wrestle for Defender
none- Block, Wrestle: Clear use Block
Block, Wrestle-none: Clear use Block
Block - Wrestle : Clear use Wrestle
Wrestle - Block: Clear use Wrestle
none - Wrestle : Don't use skill to cause a turnover. Maybe ask.
Wrestle- none: Use Wrestle. But maybe ask.
Posted by Reisender on 2010-08-30 14:22:52
1) great effort - it would be great if you would post this into the forum thread where the discussion takes place (or even as a 1st post of a new thread) so that all skills can be discussed to compile a complete list and do some changes (you would have to edit your original post then depending on input)
i am sure this would be a great help/reference for kalimar when he thinks about further implementation of optional skills
2) i play rats and i want to fail dodges every 3rd game :D when i am beat up and dont want to be blocked in my opponents turn 8
i am sure this would be a great help/reference for kalimar when he thinks about further implementation of optional skills
2) i play rats and i want to fail dodges every 3rd game :D when i am beat up and dont want to be blocked in my opponents turn 8
Posted by jarvis_pants on 2010-08-30 14:40:51
Great Work Easy 6 stars.
Just one i noticed. Guard when assisting fouls you can go to recent ffb foul discusion to see why people would want to break armour or not depending on what they rolled first.
Just one i noticed. Guard when assisting fouls you can go to recent ffb foul discusion to see why people would want to break armour or not depending on what they rolled first.
Posted by WhatBall on 2010-08-30 16:58:13
Good job.
A few points:
How are Disturbing Presence and Foul Appearance optional? You just can't turn that off, it is the way those players are. The rules for those indicate they must be applied.
Regeneration says that is you suffer a CAS, then roll. I see no option not to roll it. How many people can tell themselves to not heal a cut? Your body just does it.
It is a shame the optional use of rules was not better clarified with CRP. A simple optional/not optional chart would have been very beneficial to avoid all the rules lawyering.
A few points:
How are Disturbing Presence and Foul Appearance optional? You just can't turn that off, it is the way those players are. The rules for those indicate they must be applied.
Regeneration says that is you suffer a CAS, then roll. I see no option not to roll it. How many people can tell themselves to not heal a cut? Your body just does it.
It is a shame the optional use of rules was not better clarified with CRP. A simple optional/not optional chart would have been very beneficial to avoid all the rules lawyering.
Posted by uuni on 2010-08-30 19:05:46
I, for one, applaud your work on thinking of reasonable resolution of the question of optional skill use. I also agree on many points.
As we can see that this question still draws a big controversy and lots of discussion, perhaps it would still be fruitful to continue the discussion on the forum side?
Also I get the feeling, that using the rulebooks definitions of optionaliness/mandatoriness of skill might be as viable as many others. It would tell us to always use about half of the skills and ask of the rest. For instance, by the rulebook you always use Nerves of Steel, Big Hand and Regeneration.
Nice post and good discussion point (we all love rules discussions, don't we? :) )
As we can see that this question still draws a big controversy and lots of discussion, perhaps it would still be fruitful to continue the discussion on the forum side?
Also I get the feeling, that using the rulebooks definitions of optionaliness/mandatoriness of skill might be as viable as many others. It would tell us to always use about half of the skills and ask of the rest. For instance, by the rulebook you always use Nerves of Steel, Big Hand and Regeneration.
Nice post and good discussion point (we all love rules discussions, don't we? :) )
Posted by asharak on 2010-08-31 00:49:03
As mentioned by others Grab and Sidestep may not always be desirable. However the possibility is calculable. If the three normal pushback squares are occupied then they may not want to use these skills. Otherwise there is no harm at all in using them as they can just choose the square anyway. So when all three are occupied its ask o'clock!
Posted by asharak on 2010-08-31 00:49:56
Also have just realised the client must alreay make this check to know if you can push back into an occupied square or not, so should be easy to do too...
Posted by Irgy on 2010-08-31 02:57:51
Well, 14 comments and 17 votes, clearly a topic where nearly everyone has something to say : ) Thanks for the helpful comments. Which specifically does not include those which claim there to be errors but don't make the (really quite small) effort to point out what they are so I can fix them. I have made some edits, listed above, which I think account for most of the comments made so far.
There's been some suggestions to allow people to turn certain skills off entirely rather than make them optional. I completely disagree with this, as for most of the scenarios in that category you don't want the skill off for the whole opponent's turn, you want to turn it off for one player in one specific case, so an option to turn it off completely is useless. Making people react in real time to what the opponent is doing changes the game fundamentally away from being a turn based game, and I don't think that's a good thing at all.
Finally, there's also been some comments that I should make this a forum post rather than a blog, which I will consider doing.
There's been some suggestions to allow people to turn certain skills off entirely rather than make them optional. I completely disagree with this, as for most of the scenarios in that category you don't want the skill off for the whole opponent's turn, you want to turn it off for one player in one specific case, so an option to turn it off completely is useless. Making people react in real time to what the opponent is doing changes the game fundamentally away from being a turn based game, and I don't think that's a good thing at all.
Finally, there's also been some comments that I should make this a forum post rather than a blog, which I will consider doing.
Posted by mubo on 2010-09-01 12:41:05
Great idea to break them into categories. I am happy to forgoe choices in final 2 categories, personally don't think it's really worth K's time, but that's just me.
One point- I can see someone not using fend when blocked by a frenzy player, e.g. 2 dice going into a 1/2 dice block. I'd put fend in the `cc' group if frenzy is involved.
One point- I can see someone not using fend when blocked by a frenzy player, e.g. 2 dice going into a 1/2 dice block. I'd put fend in the `cc' group if frenzy is involved.
Posted by oryx on 2010-09-02 00:27:46
Good idea irgy. Note that kick should not be able to be a chosen skill, at least as far as I'm concerned - by the time the ball is scattering, any effort on the part of the player is long past. The time to choose whether to use kick or not is before the roll. The rules may not support me here.
Posted by Grod on 2010-09-06 11:41:09
Well, it is tricky. Some skills you would want to use almost always, except in a very rare, but important situations.
For example, claw / mighty blow. There are in fact circumstances, where I might prefer an opposing player to be stunned say, then to upgrade that to a KO. For example if a stunned player would block a vital square on the pitch, which might be important for a crowd push, setting up a chain push to move someone into scoring range, preventing the ball carrier from moving, or defending a certain route to your own ball carrier etc.
For example, claw / mighty blow. There are in fact circumstances, where I might prefer an opposing player to be stunned say, then to upgrade that to a KO. For example if a stunned player would block a vital square on the pitch, which might be important for a crowd push, setting up a chain push to move someone into scoring range, preventing the ball carrier from moving, or defending a certain route to your own ball carrier etc.