Posted by blader4411 on 2013-09-01 14:22:21

The old system was great for finding coaches you knew on IRC sure, but this is my experience with using it against newer coaches:
See a team listed.
Go look in IRC and don't find him
Notice a PM from him 2 minutes later asking for a game
Reply yes and wait
...Wait 5 minutes then see him in a game with someone else.

Its much easier now that everything is condensed into a single screen.

Posted by Verminardo on 2013-09-01 14:26:06

I hated scheduling in IRC. I still prefer Blackbox activation over Gamefinder but since Ranked has the cooler Tourneys I'll do Gamefinder every so often to build up a team. It's a huge improvement imo. Did you know there was a poll? Everyone and their mum participated and the large majority votet "yay".

Posted by MattDakka on 2013-09-01 14:28:28

Play in Black Box.

Posted by Dan-Da-Man on 2013-09-01 14:28:42

Just want to point out its NOT the gamefinder that is the problem its the people that play in ranked! People are being so picky now it really is hurting the division.

Some nights i look at the current games and black box has double the games being played and i have never seen that happen.

I did have an idea about trying to address this problem in ranked but all the hard core pickers didnt like it.

Posted by bobafettsmum on 2013-09-01 14:29:55

Do you have a link to that poll? I would be interested to see it.

Posted by harvestmouse on 2013-09-01 14:30:44

I'd prefer a mix of the 2. You can see all teams on gf, like the old one and then click what teams you want to play with, with your teams like the new one.

GF doesn't work properly for the smaller gaming environments. Stunty, League and off peak Ranked.

Posted by bobafettsmum on 2013-09-01 14:33:01

The good thing about chat was that you might be offered a game that you wouldnt really fancy but if the coach seemed nice/fun/cool etc you'd probably take it and end up having a fun game. Now the system is so faceless and you cant see the full team roster.

Posted by Overhamsteren on 2013-09-01 14:33:38

Getting games against coaches at star level or above can be very hard indeed.

The change in gamefinder does seem to have increased picking and decreased communication.

Of course it is probably easier for new coaches to use this gamefinder, and when you do get a game there it's often against a rookie.

Posted by harvestmouse on 2013-09-01 14:33:46

Jeez dan, you are a broken record, every other blog......

And for the record:

http://fumbbl.com/p/stats

Ranked has improved it's standing against Box over recent months. If anything it has the upper hand.

You really need to stop.

1. If nobody want's to play your Cdorfs, fine, good for them. I wouldn't want to play them.
2. Back in the day, you were pretty handy yourself at picking in ranked.

Posted by koadah on 2013-09-01 14:45:38

Harvestmouse has it right.

The old system was much better for just seeing who is looking for a game. I have never used the new gamefinder to actually find a match. You won't see me in gamefinder as I have no reason to log in to it.

I use group PMs. If anyone wants a match they post in a thread. If they are brave they post the game name and whoever joins they play. ;)

Keep the new gamefinder but bring back the old one as another view on the same data.

Posted by Russo on 2013-09-01 15:06:07

I am not sure either way at the moment. I do not play anywhere near as much as I used to and rarely outside of [L].

In saying that the past few days has seen me play something like 12-13 games in [R] using gamefinder. In Some ways I really like it in others I feel a bit restricted.

I guess at the moment I am sitting on the fence :-)

Posted by Dan-Da-Man on 2013-09-01 15:06:51

Back in the so called day people didnt care who they played and its my opinion HM you just stay in stunty.

Ranked is bad and thats a fact i have seen others say this in chat but you dont say nothing to them its just because its me.

Sorry i dont sit back and not say nothing if i think some thing could be better and ranked could be better!

Posted by Dan-Da-Man on 2013-09-01 15:09:28

Oh and that chart you looked at click the 30 months tab black box has taken over which backs my claim up when i said about in current games there was over half more games being played at that current time in black box over ranked

Posted by Garion on 2013-09-01 15:14:05

Game finder is fine pickers are the problem, coach rank should be removed from it imo.

However I would rather Christer didn't spend anymore time on anything other than mass league changes that we have all been praying for for so long. League is the life blood of bb and the site.

Posted by Purplegoo on 2013-09-01 15:15:59

I don't play very often these days; but I actually find when I do we're in a pretty good spot right now with regards to finding games on Gamefinder. I get offers from 'Rookies' right through to 'Legends' for all kinds of games. My CDs seem to attract Elves, and I don't remember that happening before. And the new Gamefinder is pretty and functional, with both coaches making a challenge and no IRC cajoling. What's not to love?

I am a very small statistical sample size. But I'm not sure I've ever found looking for a game easier.

Posted by koadah on 2013-09-01 15:18:04

Remove CR so that rookies don't know when they are being picked. ;)

NOT having to get slaughtered every single match is what keeps people on the site at the beginning.

Posted by Jeffro on 2013-09-01 16:12:49

Do what Kryten used to do before he was bogged down with silly requests for things and having to police goobers with teh banhammer...

Go to IRC. Start your team in a game. Name the game and announce that you're taking the first legit opponent that shows up. That is, unless, you are one of the Ranked pickers you complain about ;)

Posted by blader4411 on 2013-09-01 16:27:30

Re: Picking
I did find it noticeably harder to find rookie opponents with the Fishbowl compared to the old system of PMing. I chalk that down to the newbies now being able to click a button and see 6MB, as opposed to in the past when they'd receive a race and a TV value which would then be heavily dependant on composition on whether or not it was a strong team.

Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-09-01 16:31:22

What a useful suggestion Jeffro.

Sacrifice your team, bobafett, because that's the answer to the gamefinder being a bit quirky to use.

New gamefinder is good, but imperfect. It solves some situations brilliantly, but has side effects. The fact it doesn't scale is a big one, when a few coaches are lfg you get a 4-5 team only choice which changes every few seconds. You can still log on to irc though and find any coaches on there who are also on the finder.

The reality is that Christer is but one guy with a real life and obligations outside of his voluntary dedication to fumbbl. He needs our help.

I did put together a rough prototype of how I think it could be done better, but I haven't gotten around to finishing it. I wasn't exactly motivated by the vitriolic response of a minority of guys here who were incensed I dared to say the current finder is flawed.

Posted by bghandras on 2013-09-01 16:43:12

I absolutely LOVE the new gamefinder. It is the only reason I played any ranked game in the last couple of months instead of bbox. I can find games quicker in ranked than in blackbox. (And I assume many coaches avoid me based on CR.)

Christer, keep up the good work!

Posted by Beerox on 2013-09-01 19:04:38

You have many tools to get a game and are only using one.

Activate
Use Gamefinder
Bug people in chat for a game (who wants a game against [url]?)

Posted by pythrr on 2013-09-01 19:16:36

what's gamefinder?

Posted by Wreckage on 2013-09-01 20:09:12

There's a new button in the options menu that allows you to turn sound on.
Unfortunatly it's off by default.

If you have it on, you get a little ping when somebody accepts a match and you don't need to pay attention to the screen the entire time.

Posted by PainState on 2013-09-01 20:19:22

You can still do it the old fashion way.

You see a guy on GF and you see he is in chat.

You talk to him and convince him to play you. You can still arange matches this way and totally by pass the GF.

The issue though is that the new GF killed off IRC. Thus the IMO and based on looking around. At any given time ony one or two of the coaches are on IRC/chat. The other 9+ are not.

Posted by harvestmouse on 2013-09-01 20:40:21

No you can't. Either it's an option thing or a gamefinder thing, but it doesn't show all possible matches. As an example, it will show some matches with a team on gf, but the team i want to play with it won't. Which means there are possible teams out there that I have no idea are on the gamefinder.

Posted by Woodstock on 2013-09-01 20:47:36

The new GF is a result of IRC dying, not the cause. Mostly because Christer was annoyed by the fact people used PMs to challenge people, and how inefficient that was.

Posted by harvestmouse on 2013-09-01 21:09:20

RE dan_da_man

"Back in the so called day people didnt care who they played"
Incorrect, Ranked has always had match avoiding (and picking). Match avoiding is a good way of saying what is socially acceptable. Your CD team is not, thus you don't get many games with them. The sooner you learn this, the sooner you can move on.

"Ranked is bad and thats a fact i have seen others say this in chat but you dont say nothing to them its just because its me."
Oh well if 'others' are saying it, there must be a problem. I don't have any personal issues with you, I'm just fed up with your double standards.

1. You used to be very critical about the amount of CDs in box.
2. You used to be very good at choosing favourable matches in ranked. If you're going to stand on a pedestal, make sure the bottom isn't rotten.

"Sorry i dont sit back and not say nothing if i think some thing could be better and ranked could be better!"

I'm sorry, I don't speak 'Old Kentish Town West', may I have the English version please.

"Oh and that chart you looked at click the 30 months tab black box has taken over which backs my claim up when i said about in current games there was over half more games being played at that current time in black box over ranked"

+ "Just want to point out its NOT the gamefinder that is the problem its the people that play in ranked! People are being so picky now it really is hurting the division."

Your point was, the division was suffering 'now' because people pick, clearly this isn't the case. It's thriving.

In all honesty though, it's very clear both divisions are stable, and there are no real problems with either, No matter what mud you wish to throw.

Posted by B_SIDE on 2013-09-01 21:28:04

I love the new gamefinder. But what I'd really like to see is an open challenge window. Like a scroll bar on the side that always automatically lists ranked teams that are LFG. Maybe even sortable by TV or something.

Posted by Verminardo on 2013-09-01 21:40:33

The poll used to be linked directly on the front page for ages. No idea how to get to it now.

Posted by Garion on 2013-09-01 21:51:54

Yeah the admins are right, New game finder is far far better. Pickers gonna pick always have always will.

Posted by PainState on 2013-09-01 22:00:28

Well it is easy to open challenge on the GF.

1) Hit GF with one or more of your teams.

2)screen pops up and you see that you have 18 possible match ups with your team(s)

3)Immediatly click every single one of them and green light them.

4)Wait and see what happens.

There is one big issue with this plan though.

Human nature. GF opens up and you see 18 possible match ups. BUT then you notice that 2 of those teams are a nice and juicy CPOMB teams. Dont want that, so you hit the red button. Notice over here a match up you dont really fancy, hit the red button over there. Next thing you know you have soent 5 minutes actually looking at the match ups and you have 6 left.

So if you want to open challenge just click every green check mark and do not even look at the match ups. Let the other coaches decide.

Posted by C3I2 on 2013-09-01 22:05:53

What you lack is the full information. What I do with the finder is to activate ONE team, and at most two, this to get an overview of the listed vs. games. In the old days I would just look at what was listed, and know what to activate, or perhaps even make a new team to play somebody lowish.

I can still get that information, but I need to activate teams I don't plan to play, one at a time to probe, and then remember the teams I see from opponents. Really, a hard workaround, something you could just have a separate page for. I.E keep finder, and have one extra page that list all teams (but no matches).

Posted by pythrr on 2013-09-01 23:33:19

c3po

you and yr delfs are the worst pickers around atm.

thanks for sharing how you do it

Posted by PurpleChest on 2013-09-01 23:34:58

new gamefinder has added to my semi retirement. I just cant get game son it for whatever reason.

Posted by C3I2 on 2013-09-01 23:52:13

Duh, A vs. matching as it is gives up to:X*Y number of lines (that also keeps changing) the old way gave Y number of lines, guess what is easier if you want an overview of what is on the finder pyttie?

Posted by pythrr on 2013-09-02 00:33:42

keep on picking, c3po.

btw, you are almost consistently 20 or 30 TV stronger than yr opponents. you'd be wise to watch that, as an admin might decide that you are abusing the system and retire yr team. after all, PC has already banned them from majors.

Posted by Nickpcr on 2013-09-02 00:35:13

Having last played back in 2006 before returning this year, I'd like to say the new gamefinder is 1000% better than anything back then, golden age or not.

Posted by fidius on 2013-09-02 00:40:09

I guess it's possible Ranked is thriving for some people, particularly those who play at peak times, ie evenings Euro-time. For us Norte-Americanos, it's now a wasteland. I gave up many months ago playing Ranked, switched to Box. An analysis of ante-vs-post # of games per hour since GF came online would make this explicit, I would expect. Has anyone looked at the data?

GF appears to "enable" the worst in human picking tendencies. Maybe it's just the NA players who pick? Whatever the reason, there are no games there anymore at the times of day when I play.

Posted by lemf on 2013-09-02 00:49:41

Grid filling has become a lot harder with the new Gamefinder, and finding games can now take up to two hours if I can get one. That said for finding a game it is still very fast just clck the green tick and a match will soon come. Predominantly against Chaos Necro or Orcs, They are always there.
Also joining Irc straight away is useful.

Posted by Muktar on 2013-09-02 01:00:32

Seriously, what is the difference between TV cherrypicking and team cherrypicking. Box and Ranked both cherrypick, in different ways. I would rather chose which of my opponents are than being cherrypicked because they abused the TV system.

Posted by pythrr on 2013-09-02 01:16:13

muktar, minmaxing in B is not "abusing" the TV system. The TV system could be better, yes, but to use the system as it stands is hardly abusing it.

In R one can abuse the TV system, by consistently choosing to play vs lower TV teams. In B, such differences are random.

Posted by C3I2 on 2013-09-02 01:17:05

I actually did play the major unlike you pyttie, and I got the lightningbolt dead Legend to prove it. I do wish I had the opportunity to play a prepared team though. Perhaps next time.

Posted by licker on 2013-09-02 01:19:05

The only person who has made any sense in this entire reply chain is Garion. And the only reason that's the case is because he must have remembered that I have been saying the same thing for ages ;)

Nothing wrong with the new gf that wasn't also messed up in the old one. Also nothing wrong with proposing actual changes to it, but the 'this sucks' attitude isn't productive and is likely to just get you laughed at.

Posted by Muktar on 2013-09-02 01:23:46

Okay, you are right Pythrr, I don't try to pick teams wayyyy to low in tv +/- 100k at most I prefer less than that.

That being said, it is being abused because blood bowl was made to be played in seasons, not ad infinitum. Leagues are always best and I even rarely play my ranked teams... and I won't even give the satisfaction of playing boxed. I'm always happy to see boxed being outnumbered by ranked. Hopefully more people abandon it to something better.

Posted by pythrr on 2013-09-02 01:28:23

Unlike me what c3po?

Posted by pythrr on 2013-09-02 01:32:08

c3po:

yr last 10 games with bowl and chain:

+36 TV
+7 TV
-8 TV
+41 TV
+1 TV
+77 TV
+48 TV
+21 TV
+25 TV
+19 TV

now, tell me you are no picking for low TV.

Posted by C3I2 on 2013-09-02 02:21:57

Come back when you can sing as good as me, pyttie!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbeXh9FZT_g

Posted by pythrr on 2013-09-02 02:35:05

evidence of blatant picking above: are you going to refute it?

Posted by keggiemckill on 2013-09-02 02:53:08

I play ranked when I want a better variety of matches. I rarely choose Chaos, CDs, Nurgle ect in ranked, because I play them often in Box. The right to choose games is the reason for ranked. The right to use any team is for Box.

Posted by The_Provocateur on 2013-09-02 04:40:56

This is degenerating nicely. Anywho, all the systems can and will be flawed in someway because opportunists will always find a way to abuse any system with any sort of streamlining. When you streamline, you create 'blindspots' in most systems. In this case, the 'blindspot' is that people or more likely to refuse a challenge because is it as easy as clinking a '-.' Old gamefinder was certainly slower in total games played, but people were less likely to refuse a match because they actually had to formulate a message and tell someone "No." Without the guarantee of more lights popping up to replace the previous offers.

Posted by Lorebass on 2013-09-02 06:12:22

yes, this is going to that thing in the hand basket. we all have ways that we are used to and comfortable with. for you it was gamefinder. I disliked the old system myself because i couldnt get on IRC half the time i wanted to play. so i started playing box and turned that into my filthy masochistic habit. if anything you can still use IRC to find your ranked games. there are always a bunch of coaches online and many who wont be on gamefinder that would be willing to play with you.

otherwise... well change is change. dont let it put you down just find a nice work around!

and any more in blog tiffs between anyone and ill ask the coach to delete and repost... take it to the forums guys.

Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2013-09-02 10:33:32

Ah yes, the old "us vs them" debate... This feels like a fresh topic.

The shitty Ranked v Box stuff only hurts Fumbbl. Give it a rest. Play the way you like and stop whining.

Please. :)

Posted by bobafettsmum on 2013-09-02 17:52:33

Well some of the above comments were helpful. I think anybody that plays in Ranked are pickers to a degree. If I just want to play a game against any old team then I might as well play Box.
I can certainly see that to any Cyanide/or new players this system would seem a lot easier than the old. Certainly PMing was a pain in the arse! Perhaps the gamesfinder page could do with a link to chat so that more of these newer players are aware of IRC. But to me IRC has died because of the new gamesfinder system not the other way round.

Posted by Ehlers on 2013-09-02 18:35:09

Seems people have got memory loss over time.

In the old days with the IRC, we also had rants about pickers and how hard it was to find a game.

We had complain about people joining with a different team than was offered. Did we forgot that?

We had complain about people sneak hiring what ever star they could fit into it.

And then also not everyone posted the link to their team they wanted to play, but just said their race team vs your team. Some coaches would not give it, but just expected you went and look it up yourself.

We got offered ridiculous offers on IRC. Yeah your chaos with multiblock claw&MB players and full of DPs while your own team was one badly team that needed a recovery match.

Sure I miss all this? Not at all. IRC was already decaying all along even before this new GF as woodstock pointed out.

The new GF is faster and is easier to filter out teams or people you dont want to play. It is also faster at checking and offering games to multiple teams.

It might not be the most Utopian optimal system in the world, but it is way better than the old one. It is just really people becoming more picking if anything.

Posted by the_Sage on 2013-09-04 14:00:01

I do tend to agree. Also see
http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=23286