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2013-06-24 22:33:28
27 votes, rating 5.1
27 votes, rating 5.1
Ambition
As some of you might notice, I haven't been the most active recently. I've been telling myself I'm on a Bloodbowl break; but that's not entirely true.
Today, I read this article by David Heinemeier Hansson - Ambition Can Be Poison.
What hit home is the reason that I ended up taking a break. I'm not among the best players on the site (I could easily list 50+ better players than me), but I'm quite good with Lizardmen, and I used to spend a lot of time tweaking teams to be perfectly TV efficient for the TV matched tournaments, and doing Major prep.
I stopped, because I didn't enjoy it any more. When I play the Box with a tuned team, or whether I'm entering a major/minor with a 2000 TV team, I would expect to win every game, unless my opponent was on my internal list of better coaches.
I never really explained that logic, because it's silly. You can't expect to always win. You can't always expect to win every game (for those that try, see the recent series of blogs).
"It’s irrational, but so are most forms of psychological addiction. You can’t break the spell merely by throwing logic at it."
I'm not really sure why I'm posting this. It's not like it needs an explanation; plenty of people leave all the time. I guess it's a counter-point to some of the frustration posts that have been going on recently. I suspect a part of it boils down to the format of the competitive divisions.
When everything is matched so perfectly that a good player should have a great chance of winning any game, how do you persuade yourself that losing is okay?
Today, I read this article by David Heinemeier Hansson - Ambition Can Be Poison.
What hit home is the reason that I ended up taking a break. I'm not among the best players on the site (I could easily list 50+ better players than me), but I'm quite good with Lizardmen, and I used to spend a lot of time tweaking teams to be perfectly TV efficient for the TV matched tournaments, and doing Major prep.
I stopped, because I didn't enjoy it any more. When I play the Box with a tuned team, or whether I'm entering a major/minor with a 2000 TV team, I would expect to win every game, unless my opponent was on my internal list of better coaches.
I never really explained that logic, because it's silly. You can't expect to always win. You can't always expect to win every game (for those that try, see the recent series of blogs).
"It’s irrational, but so are most forms of psychological addiction. You can’t break the spell merely by throwing logic at it."
I'm not really sure why I'm posting this. It's not like it needs an explanation; plenty of people leave all the time. I guess it's a counter-point to some of the frustration posts that have been going on recently. I suspect a part of it boils down to the format of the competitive divisions.
When everything is matched so perfectly that a good player should have a great chance of winning any game, how do you persuade yourself that losing is okay?
Comments
Posted by MattDakka on 2013-06-24 22:42:41
"When everything is matched so perfectly that a good player should have a great chance of winning any game, how do you persuade yourself that losing is okay?"
Simple answer: BB isn't a deterministic game, bad dice can make a good coach lose.
Simple answer: BB isn't a deterministic game, bad dice can make a good coach lose.
Posted by Endzone on 2013-06-24 22:45:50
I tend to look back on games and consider was that mine to win lose or draw depending on the coaches, the teams and the dice. If I decide it was mine to lose and I lost (e.g. a real bad dicing it doesn't hurt do much). The satisfying thing is when you look back thinking that was mine to lose and you get a draw or a win.
Posted by Azure on 2013-06-24 22:47:45
Two types of loses really. The ones where I am happy with how I played - no major mistakes and took the opportunities when they were available - but still lost due to dice/matchup. These generally do not bother me much. The other type of loses are when I screw up - I make a critical mistake - move someone incorrectly so I have to make an extra 2+ roll. The little things and because of that - I end up losing. Those are frustrating to me because I know the loss was on me for being a bad coach.
So to summarize - losing to a better coach/dice/team happens. I play a lot of halflings in the box...it is hard to win even when I do everything right. However against dwarves - it certainly is still okay to lose.
So to summarize - losing to a better coach/dice/team happens. I play a lot of halflings in the box...it is hard to win even when I do everything right. However against dwarves - it certainly is still okay to lose.
Posted by polardragon on 2013-06-24 22:58:41
Interesting post. I don't consider myself anywhere near an elite coach but I have felt the sting of not living up to my own expectations on the BB pitch.
I don't believe losing is ever really 'okay' when you are playing to win. Part of the answer may be to decouple 'success' from 'winning'.
That has been working for me lately. I have accepted that there are better coaches than me, and that nuffle is a fickle S.O.B.
If I don't make any truly boneheaded mistakes in a game I'll usually mark it as a success.
If I have fun in chat while getting pasted, I'll mark it a success.
On the rare occasion I win big, I'll mark it a success and watch the replays a few times to enjoy the moment and try to recognize the plays that made it happen.
When I find myself getting frustrated with a game that is supposed to be fun, I do something more important for a few days like play with the kids and leave the laptop powered down.
I don't believe losing is ever really 'okay' when you are playing to win. Part of the answer may be to decouple 'success' from 'winning'.
That has been working for me lately. I have accepted that there are better coaches than me, and that nuffle is a fickle S.O.B.
If I don't make any truly boneheaded mistakes in a game I'll usually mark it as a success.
If I have fun in chat while getting pasted, I'll mark it a success.
On the rare occasion I win big, I'll mark it a success and watch the replays a few times to enjoy the moment and try to recognize the plays that made it happen.
When I find myself getting frustrated with a game that is supposed to be fun, I do something more important for a few days like play with the kids and leave the laptop powered down.
Posted by koadah on 2013-06-24 23:07:17
"When everything is matched so perfectly that a good player should have a great chance of winning any game, how do you persuade yourself that losing is okay?"
"it's only a game"? :D
If you are that competitive get into something that will make you some money. ;)
"1 always fails 6 always succeeds" should be a pretty big hint that you must be nuts if you take this too seriously. ;)
"it's only a game"? :D
If you are that competitive get into something that will make you some money. ;)
"1 always fails 6 always succeeds" should be a pretty big hint that you must be nuts if you take this too seriously. ;)
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2013-06-25 00:27:26
I expect to win every game cos I'm pro as heck!
Posted by the_Sage on 2013-06-25 00:28:02
I think it's a good blog (Hito's and the one in the link).
It's not just about the win getting expected and thus devalued, it's about the addiction and the resulting diminishing returns in terms of fun.
It's not just about the win getting expected and thus devalued, it's about the addiction and the resulting diminishing returns in terms of fun.
Posted by Qaz on 2013-06-25 00:38:37
I will not leave Fumbbl. My last thread of courage is to wait... for you.
If you are fighting, stop fighting. If you are marching, stop marching. Come back to me. Come back to me is my request.
If you are fighting, stop fighting. If you are marching, stop marching. Come back to me. Come back to me is my request.
Posted by Overhamsteren on 2013-06-25 00:48:21
From the article:
Happiness doesn’t lie in the fulfillment of the expected. Neither in all the trinkets and trophies of the world. IT'S IN ENJOYING THE IMMERSION OF THE PROCESS, not the final outcome.
Fits blood bowl pretty much perfect. :O
Not exclusive from ultra competitiveness I guess if you can value the process more than the final win/loss.
Happiness doesn’t lie in the fulfillment of the expected. Neither in all the trinkets and trophies of the world. IT'S IN ENJOYING THE IMMERSION OF THE PROCESS, not the final outcome.
Fits blood bowl pretty much perfect. :O
Not exclusive from ultra competitiveness I guess if you can value the process more than the final win/loss.
Posted by Synn on 2013-06-25 00:54:26
I can relate Hito.
The one thing that has always pissed me off is when people are bailed out by their dice after playing crappy. Those instances where someone tries to stall in a horrific position, gets complete outpositioned, etc. Those are the instances that do grate on me.
If the other coach has played well or as well as the dice would let them.... I don't mind losing to them on some dice.
I wish SMACKs were a little more accessible for lower TV games.
__Synn
The one thing that has always pissed me off is when people are bailed out by their dice after playing crappy. Those instances where someone tries to stall in a horrific position, gets complete outpositioned, etc. Those are the instances that do grate on me.
If the other coach has played well or as well as the dice would let them.... I don't mind losing to them on some dice.
I wish SMACKs were a little more accessible for lower TV games.
__Synn
Posted by fidius on 2013-06-25 02:35:24
I think the writer asks the right questions, but arrives at the wrong answer. Ambition is not poison when it is directed at something truly meaningful, and what he has realized is that winning a car race is not meaningful enough to justify the desire. Secondly it appears that his chief desire is to maximize "happiness"... which unfortunately isn't meaningful either.
I enjoy this little site most (and get much better luck!) when I know I'm not stealing time from things more meaningful: family, work, chores, etc. When it does take away from those things, I often don't realize until later that it's not the game causing my misery.
I enjoy this little site most (and get much better luck!) when I know I'm not stealing time from things more meaningful: family, work, chores, etc. When it does take away from those things, I often don't realize until later that it's not the game causing my misery.
Posted by B_SIDE on 2013-06-25 05:49:26
Losing in a game of luck is sometimes out of your control. In a game like blood bowl, the dice rolling makes for an EXTREMELY volatile game. (Compared to say, WH40K.)
Play your best, give yourself good chances, and don't be too terribly sad about losing when you play well. Everyone wants to win, but winning and losing simply is NOT something you can entirely control.
I'm going to go blog about this, too.
Play your best, give yourself good chances, and don't be too terribly sad about losing when you play well. Everyone wants to win, but winning and losing simply is NOT something you can entirely control.
I'm going to go blog about this, too.
Posted by koadah on 2013-06-25 10:26:28
'Secondly it appears that his chief desire is to maximize "happiness"... which unfortunately isn't meaningful either.'
What!!!?
Then why are we here? Why not just end it right now?
What!!!?
Then why are we here? Why not just end it right now?
Posted by Narlgoth on 2013-06-25 15:46:03
When playing Blood Bowl the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important and not the winning.
Posted by koadah on 2013-06-25 18:01:39
Winning may be a goal.
More important goals may be to have fun or chill out.
The chief goal could be to build the team, get your MNGers back, skill a specific player.
The main problem with the so call 'competitive' divisions is that people are playing for different reasons.
If it was all about winning there wouldn't be so much moaning about Smallman. ;)
More important goals may be to have fun or chill out.
The chief goal could be to build the team, get your MNGers back, skill a specific player.
The main problem with the so call 'competitive' divisions is that people are playing for different reasons.
If it was all about winning there wouldn't be so much moaning about Smallman. ;)
Posted by The_Murker on 2013-06-25 19:02:36
Winning a major isn't up to you. It's up to Nuffle supporting a good player playing well. You take care of the good player bit. The rest is out of your control. If you arn't enjoying your end of it, I think you are a very wise man for taking a short break.
Lot's of very good comments here. Same thing being said many ways.. enjoy the process. And my view is that the only healthy process is the process of improving. Improving your game.
Every game will have a different time investment required to develop conpetance, then experienced play, then true expert level play.
You are probablly realising you are at at level with very diminishing returns. There isn't that much more you can obviously do to improve your current game. Your current game is awsome. And Nuffle still makes it frustrating. JUST, LIKE, POKER. I see three choices.
1) Take a break then come back and enjoy getting your awsome game back up to speed.
2) Reach the next level. Specialize with lizards in a way that FUMBBL dosn't know exisits and hasn't seen. I mean keeping stastics, developing trap plays, playing yourself until you can literally think three moves ahead in each of three directions, depending on what the dice may do. Recognise patterns in general FUMBBL play, and in anti-lizard play, etc. etc. All of which would require a huge time investment for only a small improvement in your final win-loss percentage. And to be truley efficient in learning these things, you would have to sacrifice your actual win-loss percentage by being experimental in Black Box in a massive way. Cool concept, very boring in practice for a recreational activity. I don't think we have a 'professional level' player on FUMBBL that I am aware of. No 10'000 game members. Thank goodness.
3) Pick a new and very challenging race. Mastering Vampires might prove rewarding. So many things to be considered and extra variables to be managed. So much room for improvement from playing competantly to playing VERY well. Doing vamps well could be rewarding, provided you can handle the Nuffelings.. which many can't. Mad Vamp team skills wouldn't translate over well to other FUMBBL races, but if you enjoy the process..
Great blog Hito.
Lot's of very good comments here. Same thing being said many ways.. enjoy the process. And my view is that the only healthy process is the process of improving. Improving your game.
Every game will have a different time investment required to develop conpetance, then experienced play, then true expert level play.
You are probablly realising you are at at level with very diminishing returns. There isn't that much more you can obviously do to improve your current game. Your current game is awsome. And Nuffle still makes it frustrating. JUST, LIKE, POKER. I see three choices.
1) Take a break then come back and enjoy getting your awsome game back up to speed.
2) Reach the next level. Specialize with lizards in a way that FUMBBL dosn't know exisits and hasn't seen. I mean keeping stastics, developing trap plays, playing yourself until you can literally think three moves ahead in each of three directions, depending on what the dice may do. Recognise patterns in general FUMBBL play, and in anti-lizard play, etc. etc. All of which would require a huge time investment for only a small improvement in your final win-loss percentage. And to be truley efficient in learning these things, you would have to sacrifice your actual win-loss percentage by being experimental in Black Box in a massive way. Cool concept, very boring in practice for a recreational activity. I don't think we have a 'professional level' player on FUMBBL that I am aware of. No 10'000 game members. Thank goodness.
3) Pick a new and very challenging race. Mastering Vampires might prove rewarding. So many things to be considered and extra variables to be managed. So much room for improvement from playing competantly to playing VERY well. Doing vamps well could be rewarding, provided you can handle the Nuffelings.. which many can't. Mad Vamp team skills wouldn't translate over well to other FUMBBL races, but if you enjoy the process..
Great blog Hito.
Posted by The_Murker on 2013-06-25 19:08:52
Oh.. all I really wanted to say was 'thanks for the link. It led me to [url=http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3124-give-it-five-minutes]this article[/url].'
This is my world this week, and I am so going to whip out this comment at the business meeting tomorrow if required. (and better recognise the tendency in myself) Cheers.
This is my world this week, and I am so going to whip out this comment at the business meeting tomorrow if required. (and better recognise the tendency in myself) Cheers.
Posted by maysrill on 2013-07-02 19:29:16
My goal in playing blood bowl is not to win, but to have fun. I like winning, but I don't win enough for that to sustain me as the only reason to play. I'll take a well-fought loss against a fun, engaging opponent who played his backside off over a pseudo-concession by someone grumbling the whole way and just throwing their players around, giving up somewhere mid game.