47 coaches online • Server time: 11:55
* * * Did you know? The most deaths in a single match is 8.
Recent Forum Topics  7s for fummbl? | Exempt teams | Secret League Americ... |
2015-04-13 14:49:21
18 votes, rating 3.4
18 votes, rating 3.4
Amazons blog: The Rule of Five
Disclaimer: This blog is inspired by
bigGuy - Who covered khemris in a similar manner
Rabe - Maybe there should be a series "applying" the Rule of Five to different races, each article written by a coach who's rather competent with the particular race... an idea for the GLN?
GLN may use part or whole of this blog without further notice.
Volume 1
Amazon team building
Beware, the instructions may contain seeds of minmaxing!
I am aware that some of you may consider stop reading it, as there is a strong aversion toward minmaxing. Don't do it just yet. Amazon team building is inherently contains minmaxing whatever you do, as the amazon linewoman is probably the most underpriced player in blood bowl. 50k for 6337 and dodge is huge. Btw dodge is a double for that player, as she has no A access. So a human lino switching an armor for a double.
If you play with amazons, then your teams value is among your linewoman. Try to have as many of them as possible. Use bench, as you will need it. Plus a linewoman is better than anything the opponent may bring as extra firepower. Better than a bloodweiser. Better than 2 skills of a killstack, unless that same player has also tackle. The 15th or 16th players may be bloat, but the 13th is almost never.
70k is always better than 90k.
Ok, lets jump to the serious minmaxing category. A linewoman costs 50k, while a blitzer costs 90k. So if you only need a blodge for a job, and you don't need pomb, guard, or other Strength skill -related shenanigan, then you are better off having a linewoman with a block, than buying a blitzer. 70k is always better than 90k. Before you leave reading this blasphemy, read the following paragraph!
Linewomen are REALLY the core of your team. You need to spoort them reaching 6 SPP as soon as you can. you cant do any better in any bbowl player, than having 6337 block+dodge, or 6337 wrestle+dodge for 70k. So even if you do not replace any of your blitzers with linewomen, you still need to embrace the inherent value of this undercosted "positional". With that said you still very much replace some or all of your blitzers with linewoman.
Volume 2
Skill choices
This is pretty general, but my voice may be heard
Linewomen - Generalist
Simple: Block/Wrestle then Fend then they die
Double: Guard, then Side step (Don't take Side step over Block or Wrestle)
Stat: Only Agility and Strength
Comment: If 1st double is guard, then take block as 2nd skill. If 1st skill is normal, then take wrestle unless you have a very good reason to take block.
Blitzers - Killer
Simple: Mighty Blow then Piling on then Frenzy/Tackle then Pro then Dauntless
Double: None
Stat: Only Agility and Strength
Blitzers - Guard
Please note that 100k is always less than 110k, so you may use a Linewoman for the Guard role. If you do so, then you skip this small part.
Simple: Guard then Mighty Blow then Stand firm
Double: None
Stat: Only Agility and Strength
Ball carrier (I use Linewoman as base)
Please note that a dedicated ball carrier is a luxury as you need to rotate your ball carrier to skill up linewoman to 6 SPP
Simple: Block then Sure Hands, then
Double: Maybe leader if she is full stack
Stat: Movement, Agility and Strength
Specialist
Skill list depends on the specialist you want. She might be a kicker, dirty player, leader. My suggestion is not to have too many. I usually use none to one. Sometimes if I have a dedicated ball carrier, then I latch leader and or kicker onto her.
Volume 3
How is the rule of 5 then?
Remember all the sentences above!
I tend to have a bunch of skilless linewomen plus a bunch of skilled linewomen, plus a few blitzers, plus a ball carrier, and maybe a specialist. Kicking specialists do not deserve any protection in my books. As I use ball carrying duties liberally, ball carriers do not get protection at will.
The blitzer has pomb most of the time. He is the only player that needs protection. I usually protect my guards, and sometimes I do protect the ball carrier. As I have no control over the number of guard skill I roll, this number is quite volatile. The rule of five only applies to amazon as much as Relativistic theory to Quantum mechanics. I will have sometimes 1-2 players to protect, while sometimes much more.
Do I protect developed linewomen without Guard?
Short answer is absolutely not. Their sweet spot is at 6 and 16 SPP, when they have blodge or wrodge, and fend as an extra protection. They are either in the front line (LOS), or in the second line protecting the rest. If I have lots of them, then they go to both.
Extra points
I would like to cover the strong and the week aspects of the strategy described. Most would think that the bane of the amazon is the tackling dwarfs, but I don't necessarily agree. Amazons may field a potent lineup with 13-14 players. The linewomen cost 20k less than a dwarf longbeard. My experience says that:
- It is quite possible to lose 1 half, and win the other half, thus securing a draw
- If amazons start, and deal a quick CAS, then it is very hard for the dorks to recover. Amazons will proceed with the ball, and even in case the dorks dish out more damage, the score is usually there, and chances are the dorks wont score with 9-10 players against 11 amazons in the 2nd half.
Lets just say the dwarf and chaos dwarf matchups are even, if you maximize the power of the linewoman, and your 1-2 killer blitzers.
Amazons are not weak against killstack. Very few serial killer has tackle. Humans do, but their linos are usually pathetic compared to linewomen. Chaos and co are not real threat usually. They kill bunch of stuff, but lose usually.
The real weakness of the strategy is against wardancers. The whole team building exercise concentrates on building up the linewomen with liberal ball handling, thus very conservative use of sure hands. Strip ball kills such strategy if it catches the amazons in the wrong phase of team building. It is very rare having a block+sure hands combo on linewoman. (And even then, the wardancers usually field tackle too.)
In this case you absolutely need to protect the sure handed players if any, and leave the guards exposed.
bigGuy - Who covered khemris in a similar manner
Rabe - Maybe there should be a series "applying" the Rule of Five to different races, each article written by a coach who's rather competent with the particular race... an idea for the GLN?
GLN may use part or whole of this blog without further notice.
Volume 1
Amazon team building
Beware, the instructions may contain seeds of minmaxing!
I am aware that some of you may consider stop reading it, as there is a strong aversion toward minmaxing. Don't do it just yet. Amazon team building is inherently contains minmaxing whatever you do, as the amazon linewoman is probably the most underpriced player in blood bowl. 50k for 6337 and dodge is huge. Btw dodge is a double for that player, as she has no A access. So a human lino switching an armor for a double.
If you play with amazons, then your teams value is among your linewoman. Try to have as many of them as possible. Use bench, as you will need it. Plus a linewoman is better than anything the opponent may bring as extra firepower. Better than a bloodweiser. Better than 2 skills of a killstack, unless that same player has also tackle. The 15th or 16th players may be bloat, but the 13th is almost never.
70k is always better than 90k.
Ok, lets jump to the serious minmaxing category. A linewoman costs 50k, while a blitzer costs 90k. So if you only need a blodge for a job, and you don't need pomb, guard, or other Strength skill -related shenanigan, then you are better off having a linewoman with a block, than buying a blitzer. 70k is always better than 90k. Before you leave reading this blasphemy, read the following paragraph!
Linewomen are REALLY the core of your team. You need to spoort them reaching 6 SPP as soon as you can. you cant do any better in any bbowl player, than having 6337 block+dodge, or 6337 wrestle+dodge for 70k. So even if you do not replace any of your blitzers with linewomen, you still need to embrace the inherent value of this undercosted "positional". With that said you still very much replace some or all of your blitzers with linewoman.
Volume 2
Skill choices
This is pretty general, but my voice may be heard
Linewomen - Generalist
Simple: Block/Wrestle then Fend then they die
Double: Guard, then Side step (Don't take Side step over Block or Wrestle)
Stat: Only Agility and Strength
Comment: If 1st double is guard, then take block as 2nd skill. If 1st skill is normal, then take wrestle unless you have a very good reason to take block.
Blitzers - Killer
Simple: Mighty Blow then Piling on then Frenzy/Tackle then Pro then Dauntless
Double: None
Stat: Only Agility and Strength
Blitzers - Guard
Please note that 100k is always less than 110k, so you may use a Linewoman for the Guard role. If you do so, then you skip this small part.
Simple: Guard then Mighty Blow then Stand firm
Double: None
Stat: Only Agility and Strength
Ball carrier (I use Linewoman as base)
Please note that a dedicated ball carrier is a luxury as you need to rotate your ball carrier to skill up linewoman to 6 SPP
Simple: Block then Sure Hands, then
Double: Maybe leader if she is full stack
Stat: Movement, Agility and Strength
Specialist
Skill list depends on the specialist you want. She might be a kicker, dirty player, leader. My suggestion is not to have too many. I usually use none to one. Sometimes if I have a dedicated ball carrier, then I latch leader and or kicker onto her.
Volume 3
How is the rule of 5 then?
Remember all the sentences above!
I tend to have a bunch of skilless linewomen plus a bunch of skilled linewomen, plus a few blitzers, plus a ball carrier, and maybe a specialist. Kicking specialists do not deserve any protection in my books. As I use ball carrying duties liberally, ball carriers do not get protection at will.
The blitzer has pomb most of the time. He is the only player that needs protection. I usually protect my guards, and sometimes I do protect the ball carrier. As I have no control over the number of guard skill I roll, this number is quite volatile. The rule of five only applies to amazon as much as Relativistic theory to Quantum mechanics. I will have sometimes 1-2 players to protect, while sometimes much more.
Do I protect developed linewomen without Guard?
Short answer is absolutely not. Their sweet spot is at 6 and 16 SPP, when they have blodge or wrodge, and fend as an extra protection. They are either in the front line (LOS), or in the second line protecting the rest. If I have lots of them, then they go to both.
Extra points
I would like to cover the strong and the week aspects of the strategy described. Most would think that the bane of the amazon is the tackling dwarfs, but I don't necessarily agree. Amazons may field a potent lineup with 13-14 players. The linewomen cost 20k less than a dwarf longbeard. My experience says that:
- It is quite possible to lose 1 half, and win the other half, thus securing a draw
- If amazons start, and deal a quick CAS, then it is very hard for the dorks to recover. Amazons will proceed with the ball, and even in case the dorks dish out more damage, the score is usually there, and chances are the dorks wont score with 9-10 players against 11 amazons in the 2nd half.
Lets just say the dwarf and chaos dwarf matchups are even, if you maximize the power of the linewoman, and your 1-2 killer blitzers.
Amazons are not weak against killstack. Very few serial killer has tackle. Humans do, but their linos are usually pathetic compared to linewomen. Chaos and co are not real threat usually. They kill bunch of stuff, but lose usually.
The real weakness of the strategy is against wardancers. The whole team building exercise concentrates on building up the linewomen with liberal ball handling, thus very conservative use of sure hands. Strip ball kills such strategy if it catches the amazons in the wrong phase of team building. It is very rare having a block+sure hands combo on linewoman. (And even then, the wardancers usually field tackle too.)
In this case you absolutely need to protect the sure handed players if any, and leave the guards exposed.
Comments
Posted by Balle2000 on 2015-04-13 16:06:55
ok, this is now turning silly. the "rule of 5" was something synn suggested, which has been shown not to be the case.
Posted by Kam on 2015-04-13 17:09:11
I haven't played hundreds of games with zons, but I've been successful enough with my team, and provided you don't "pick" too much, I find this rule of 5 completely worthless for this roster.
I don't build zons like I build... let's say orcs for instance. Zons have AV7. They die. Quite often. Even if you get enough skills to have a player great à something (JU TOMB killer for instance, or AG+ sacker, or...), you can never know if this player is gonna survive another game.
When I pick skills, I don't try to build a good player. I take skills useful for the team. So if I need an extra Guard (and you need as many as possible anyway), I'm gonna take it nomatter what, even if my guy already has PO or Wrestle. No synergy, but it doesn't matter. It's good for the team.
So, yeah, I have W/G linos, an AG4/MB/SB/T blitzer, a G/MB catcher, and a lot of oddities. But that works. I don't fear death. I don't fear to lose any of my skilled players. And I don't fear to skill up more than 5 players. :D
I don't build zons like I build... let's say orcs for instance. Zons have AV7. They die. Quite often. Even if you get enough skills to have a player great à something (JU TOMB killer for instance, or AG+ sacker, or...), you can never know if this player is gonna survive another game.
When I pick skills, I don't try to build a good player. I take skills useful for the team. So if I need an extra Guard (and you need as many as possible anyway), I'm gonna take it nomatter what, even if my guy already has PO or Wrestle. No synergy, but it doesn't matter. It's good for the team.
So, yeah, I have W/G linos, an AG4/MB/SB/T blitzer, a G/MB catcher, and a lot of oddities. But that works. I don't fear death. I don't fear to lose any of my skilled players. And I don't fear to skill up more than 5 players. :D
Posted by Kam on 2015-04-13 17:13:33
Also: now I should post a "Flings Blog: the Rule of Five": you need 5 players on the bench, period. :D
Posted by happygrue on 2015-04-13 17:37:16
Real Men do not play Amazons.
Real Blood Bowlers sometimes play Amazons, but they feel a bit dirty when they do.
Loonies play zons, but only at high TV or against dorfs.
Munchkins find a way, against all odds, to give their zons more plusses.
http://dragon.facetieux.free.fr/jdr/Munchkin.htm
Real Blood Bowlers sometimes play Amazons, but they feel a bit dirty when they do.
Loonies play zons, but only at high TV or against dorfs.
Munchkins find a way, against all odds, to give their zons more plusses.
http://dragon.facetieux.free.fr/jdr/Munchkin.htm
Posted by bghandras on 2015-04-13 17:38:07
Please Kam, do post it! I jumped on the initiative of Rabe for that reason. (It is only a half joke.)
And yes, rule of 5 is not applicable on amazons in my opinion.
And yes, rule of 5 is not applicable on amazons in my opinion.
Posted by Cavetroll on 2015-04-13 19:53:55
It was not obvious that this blog was a parody (or half-parody).
Posted by licker on 2015-04-13 20:45:52
Interesting take on amazons, I like it though.
Min maxing for them is really more like sweet spotting though. Because the skill choices are pretty basic and they don't need a lot of doubles or stats to still be a strong roster.
It's more interesting to me to consider how they could/should be built to play at higher TVs.
Then the question of using a thrower and catchers comes into play. For my money I like the catcher, and think the thrower can be used, but is less necessary.
Catchers give you a little boost for offense if you need to two turn, but mostly it's just for A access, and how trivial it is to make them blodge/ss/diving tackle.
Diving tackle is a skill that many people seem to crap on when you give it to AV7, but remember, you should be playing to maximize your ability to win games, not to keep a roster healthy :)
Yes, there is some correlation between the two, but short terms wins usually trump long term wins unless you're only play open divisions for legend building.
Min maxing for them is really more like sweet spotting though. Because the skill choices are pretty basic and they don't need a lot of doubles or stats to still be a strong roster.
It's more interesting to me to consider how they could/should be built to play at higher TVs.
Then the question of using a thrower and catchers comes into play. For my money I like the catcher, and think the thrower can be used, but is less necessary.
Catchers give you a little boost for offense if you need to two turn, but mostly it's just for A access, and how trivial it is to make them blodge/ss/diving tackle.
Diving tackle is a skill that many people seem to crap on when you give it to AV7, but remember, you should be playing to maximize your ability to win games, not to keep a roster healthy :)
Yes, there is some correlation between the two, but short terms wins usually trump long term wins unless you're only play open divisions for legend building.