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2011-02-25 11:39:19
17 votes, rating 3.8
17 votes, rating 3.8
GR and skills
Everybody know and respect Gutter Runners, they are clearly one of the best players of this game.
Without skills they are the perfect ball carriers and they can do almost everything with the ball. This is why it is good to develop them as fighters so you get a complete player.
However the horns+dauntless combo doesnt work anymore :(. With the new rules you still can develop the block+SS+DT pressurizer runner which is always a pain for your opponents, and the ball stealer runner with wrestle+strip ball+dauntless. Therefore you can get two efective players without rolling a double. In case you dont get doubles i think that the best thing is to have 2GR with block+SS+DT and 2GR with wrestle+strip ball+dauntless. With them ur opponent's ball carrier ll be worry the hole game. I ve also seen fend GRs but i dont see that fend is a good choice for them since they can easyly dodge their opponents. Am i right?
But what happens now when u roll a double??? the answer is that there is not a clear pattern. Ive seen guard, 2heads, bighand, VLL and horns. this is my opinion about these choices:
Guard is great for a block/SS GR, so if ur purpose is to ve a B+SS+DT GR it is good to give him guard if he rolls a double. The problem is that a guard SS st2 players is born to die soon.
Horns, I think that now is not worthy since u can get dauntless with normal roll.
2heads, it is good for both types of GR (the pressurizer and the stripballer).
Bighand. I ve never had BH on a GR, but it must be great in combination with leap.
VLL: it is great for the stripballer. A GR with wrestle+SB+dauntless+leap+VLL doesnt care about any cage. However it only gives +1 on leap roll
Suppose u want to have 2 pressurizers (B+ST+DT) and 2stripballers (W+SB+Daunt). and suppose u roll doubles what would you give him?? This is what i would do, I would like to know ur oppinion:
Dodge GR: Big hand
Wrestle GR: 2heads>horns>VLL
wrestle+stripball GR: 2head>Horns>Vll
wrestle+SB+dauntless GR: 2head>Vll
wrestle+SB+dauntless+leap GR: Vll
Block GR: Big Hand
Block+SS GR: Guard or bighand
Block+SS+DT GR: 2head>Guard>bighand
Block+SS+DT+tackle GR: horns or 2heads or Guard
Without skills they are the perfect ball carriers and they can do almost everything with the ball. This is why it is good to develop them as fighters so you get a complete player.
However the horns+dauntless combo doesnt work anymore :(. With the new rules you still can develop the block+SS+DT pressurizer runner which is always a pain for your opponents, and the ball stealer runner with wrestle+strip ball+dauntless. Therefore you can get two efective players without rolling a double. In case you dont get doubles i think that the best thing is to have 2GR with block+SS+DT and 2GR with wrestle+strip ball+dauntless. With them ur opponent's ball carrier ll be worry the hole game. I ve also seen fend GRs but i dont see that fend is a good choice for them since they can easyly dodge their opponents. Am i right?
But what happens now when u roll a double??? the answer is that there is not a clear pattern. Ive seen guard, 2heads, bighand, VLL and horns. this is my opinion about these choices:
Guard is great for a block/SS GR, so if ur purpose is to ve a B+SS+DT GR it is good to give him guard if he rolls a double. The problem is that a guard SS st2 players is born to die soon.
Horns, I think that now is not worthy since u can get dauntless with normal roll.
2heads, it is good for both types of GR (the pressurizer and the stripballer).
Bighand. I ve never had BH on a GR, but it must be great in combination with leap.
VLL: it is great for the stripballer. A GR with wrestle+SB+dauntless+leap+VLL doesnt care about any cage. However it only gives +1 on leap roll
Suppose u want to have 2 pressurizers (B+ST+DT) and 2stripballers (W+SB+Daunt). and suppose u roll doubles what would you give him?? This is what i would do, I would like to know ur oppinion:
Dodge GR: Big hand
Wrestle GR: 2heads>horns>VLL
wrestle+stripball GR: 2head>Horns>Vll
wrestle+SB+dauntless GR: 2head>Vll
wrestle+SB+dauntless+leap GR: Vll
Block GR: Big Hand
Block+SS GR: Guard or bighand
Block+SS+DT GR: 2head>Guard>bighand
Block+SS+DT+tackle GR: horns or 2heads or Guard
Comments
Posted by RC on 2011-02-25 11:41:22
Instead of taking big hand you could just go for extra arms. Since extra arms gives +1 on catch to you get a mini NOS in the deal.
Posted by RC on 2011-02-25 11:42:19
And with the changes to shadowing I think its now a good replacement to diving tackle.
Posted by DonTomaso on 2011-02-25 11:51:12
Wrestle, Leap and Strip Ball
There is a dangerous player for any Mega Bunker.
There is a dangerous player for any Mega Bunker.
Posted by srjuanone on 2011-02-25 11:53:58
i prefer NOS than extra arms, but i rather had big hand, since normally you ve more tackle zones when u try to pick up the ball than when u try to catch or throw that ball.
:O what is the change with shadowing???? i didnt know it has changed
:O what is the change with shadowing???? i didnt know it has changed
Posted by Garion on 2011-02-25 11:54:09
Horns is still nice to have on one because with dauntless you have to pass a roll that you would generally prefer not to make.
Two heads would also be very good on the wrestle strip ball one, it means you can dodge into a conventional cage on a 4+ with free dodge rr. Taking a -2d block isnt really an issue anyway if your opponent has no sure hands and with RR you will have 90% chance of freeing the ball up.
I dont see the point in VLL really, i think it is a waste of a skill, while it is usefull for adding +1 to a leap, you dont actually need to leap very often with GR anyway coz they are so fast.
Big hand is a nice choice especially on a leap GR then you can pick a ball up anywhere and run away, but again I think there are other more important skills first.
Pass block is very nice on one GR (though sadly not implemented yet), give that GR - SS, diving tackle and Shadowing and you have got a really nasty GR for elves to deal with. But again I would only choose pass block as a later skill and would take block, SS, DT, and Shadowing first.
Also I'm not sure that having two GR with wrestle is a good idea, because you need to be able to use them all as ball carriers and Wrestle makes them pretty useless ball carriers. I think one block strip ball and one wrestle strip ball should be sufficient. Possible give one wrestle and block so they can choose. But only double up wrestle and block as the last skill or two.
Two heads would also be very good on the wrestle strip ball one, it means you can dodge into a conventional cage on a 4+ with free dodge rr. Taking a -2d block isnt really an issue anyway if your opponent has no sure hands and with RR you will have 90% chance of freeing the ball up.
I dont see the point in VLL really, i think it is a waste of a skill, while it is usefull for adding +1 to a leap, you dont actually need to leap very often with GR anyway coz they are so fast.
Big hand is a nice choice especially on a leap GR then you can pick a ball up anywhere and run away, but again I think there are other more important skills first.
Pass block is very nice on one GR (though sadly not implemented yet), give that GR - SS, diving tackle and Shadowing and you have got a really nasty GR for elves to deal with. But again I would only choose pass block as a later skill and would take block, SS, DT, and Shadowing first.
Also I'm not sure that having two GR with wrestle is a good idea, because you need to be able to use them all as ball carriers and Wrestle makes them pretty useless ball carriers. I think one block strip ball and one wrestle strip ball should be sufficient. Possible give one wrestle and block so they can choose. But only double up wrestle and block as the last skill or two.
Posted by DukeTyrion on 2011-02-25 12:02:09
More than one Gutter with Wrestle makes me a bit nervous. One to go after the ball carrier is fine, but I prefer the others to stay on their feet as much as possible.
For double Horns is great and works well with Strip Ball. I still like to have another Gutter with Dauntless even though it's less reliable than it was.
For combo's I have been looking at Block, Side Step, Diving Tackle, Prehensile Tail to really harass ball carriers, as the 2 skills stack quite nicely.
Leap obviously goes very well with VLL, slam a Strip Ball in there too and he's gonna cause problems anywhere on the field. I prefer VLL Leap to VLL 2 Heads.
For double Horns is great and works well with Strip Ball. I still like to have another Gutter with Dauntless even though it's less reliable than it was.
For combo's I have been looking at Block, Side Step, Diving Tackle, Prehensile Tail to really harass ball carriers, as the 2 skills stack quite nicely.
Leap obviously goes very well with VLL, slam a Strip Ball in there too and he's gonna cause problems anywhere on the field. I prefer VLL Leap to VLL 2 Heads.
Posted by Garion on 2011-02-25 12:02:26
Also here is my team so you can take a look at how i went - http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=644346
I did have two wrestle strip ball GR like you say and they were resposbile for me losing one game. However I might try it again, because better positioning on my part would have at least got me a draw.
Also fend probably is a good choice so they cant be piled on, but I will not be taking it until their final skill.
I did have two wrestle strip ball GR like you say and they were resposbile for me losing one game. However I might try it again, because better positioning on my part would have at least got me a draw.
Also fend probably is a good choice so they cant be piled on, but I will not be taking it until their final skill.
Posted by srjuanone on 2011-02-25 12:04:28
I agree with Garrion: 1 wrestle+SB GR should be enough and maybe much better. The problem is that if he gets hurt, u ll ve lot of difficulties to steal the ball. This is why i thought 2 is nice. But i totally agree with ur post.
The other question is: if u have a wrestle+SB GR the next skill is leap or dauntless???
The point with BHand is that i ve lot of situations in which i ve stealed the ball but i cant pick it up because of many tackle zones. Then as my opponent is stronger can pick the ball and score. So u steal the ball for nothing.
The other question is: if u have a wrestle+SB GR the next skill is leap or dauntless???
The point with BHand is that i ve lot of situations in which i ve stealed the ball but i cant pick it up because of many tackle zones. Then as my opponent is stronger can pick the ball and score. So u steal the ball for nothing.
Posted by DukeTyrion on 2011-02-25 12:11:37
Big Hand remains one of the best Mutations, given the speed of Rats.
If I had to pick 4 Gutter Runners I would probably go with something like;
Block, Big Hand, Two Heads
Block, Leap, VLL, Strip Ball
Block, Side Step, Diving Tackle, Prehensile Tail
Wrestle, Horns, Tackle
4 very different Gutters which each bring something different defensively to the table. Every Gutter is already offensively skilled anyway, but these should have a crack at getting the ball back.
Oh and I don't agree with giving Gutters Guard. I think that's better placed on the Vermin.
If I had to pick 4 Gutter Runners I would probably go with something like;
Block, Big Hand, Two Heads
Block, Leap, VLL, Strip Ball
Block, Side Step, Diving Tackle, Prehensile Tail
Wrestle, Horns, Tackle
4 very different Gutters which each bring something different defensively to the table. Every Gutter is already offensively skilled anyway, but these should have a crack at getting the ball back.
Oh and I don't agree with giving Gutters Guard. I think that's better placed on the Vermin.
Posted by Garion on 2011-02-25 12:15:23
Both are good choices, I went with Dauntless because your players are so fast you really dont need to use leap, you can usually just go round a cage and exploit any small gaps your opponent has left. the next skill that rat gets will probably be tackle.
If your wrestle player does get hurt then yes you could be in trouble. However I think one GR with block strip ball will do a good job as well. You will be suprised by how many negative 2 dice blocks work.
Also when you force the ball free and it is not possible to pick it up, this often creates panic and forces your opponents to take risks, either scoring early or leaving a player exposed.
I like to man mark every opponent player on the pitch in this scenario which forces your opponent to make 1 dice blocks and also means they cannot regroup and form a tight cage again. As soon as this happens your GR can exloit the weakend cage. Also if the ball is in TZ and the roll will be 5+ to pick it up I go for it anyway, you have a 55% chance of pick up with RR so not bad odds really. 6+ i never bother. Also dont be afraid to end your turn by throwing the ball a long bomb to the other end of the pitch, it will cause a turn over but there is only ever going to be one winner in that race
GR FTW.
If your wrestle player does get hurt then yes you could be in trouble. However I think one GR with block strip ball will do a good job as well. You will be suprised by how many negative 2 dice blocks work.
Also when you force the ball free and it is not possible to pick it up, this often creates panic and forces your opponents to take risks, either scoring early or leaving a player exposed.
I like to man mark every opponent player on the pitch in this scenario which forces your opponent to make 1 dice blocks and also means they cannot regroup and form a tight cage again. As soon as this happens your GR can exloit the weakend cage. Also if the ball is in TZ and the roll will be 5+ to pick it up I go for it anyway, you have a 55% chance of pick up with RR so not bad odds really. 6+ i never bother. Also dont be afraid to end your turn by throwing the ball a long bomb to the other end of the pitch, it will cause a turn over but there is only ever going to be one winner in that race
GR FTW.
Posted by Garion on 2011-02-25 12:24:05
This would have been a nice, forum thread really.
@Duke - Guard is brilliant on GR, it means you have some protections for your ball carrier meaning most opponents will only be able to get a 1 dice block against your blodge ball carrier, if they can reach them. Your blitzers definately need guard but having only two players with guard in your team limits you a lot when cage breaking. Like it or not you are going to have to leave your GRs in tackle zones eventually when defending and a GR with guard is really useful here Especially when combined with another GR with Dauntless.
@Duke - Guard is brilliant on GR, it means you have some protections for your ball carrier meaning most opponents will only be able to get a 1 dice block against your blodge ball carrier, if they can reach them. Your blitzers definately need guard but having only two players with guard in your team limits you a lot when cage breaking. Like it or not you are going to have to leave your GRs in tackle zones eventually when defending and a GR with guard is really useful here Especially when combined with another GR with Dauntless.
Posted by DukeTyrion on 2011-02-25 12:51:13
We will have to agree to disagree, since I have never run out of other choices for my gutter runners, and the last thing I want is to be leaving Gutters in tackle Zones. As for cage breaking, I have rarely found it being about the number of guards available.
Aside from which, given the changes to Mutations, I am likely to start picking up Guard on the occasional linerat in the future.
Then again, I tend to play the game as a lower TV than many coaches, as my linerats (especially in Blackbox) don't have a long shelf life.
Aside from which, given the changes to Mutations, I am likely to start picking up Guard on the occasional linerat in the future.
Then again, I tend to play the game as a lower TV than many coaches, as my linerats (especially in Blackbox) don't have a long shelf life.
Posted by Garion on 2011-02-25 12:59:17
I do get where you are coming from, and really there isnt actually much need for a lot of the doubles on GR now, especially now horns and dauntless dont stack and FA has been split into FA and DP. Because their singles skills are all so useful.
You are right though, guard isnt as integral to Skaven cage breaking as it is some teams, it is just my personal preference to have a few other options for how i approach things.
You are right though, guard isnt as integral to Skaven cage breaking as it is some teams, it is just my personal preference to have a few other options for how i approach things.
Posted by srjuanone on 2011-02-25 13:02:38
Im giving guard to all my linerats which leads me to another question... Are you keeping niggli linerats?? would u keep them if they have guard?? My experience shows me that niggli rats are sent out in the very very first turns (everybody wants to block them to get the easy spp). Is it worthy to keep skilled niggli linerats??
Posted by DukeTyrion on 2011-02-25 13:10:36
I would only keep a niggled linerat if it was going to take the team to 13 players.
If you already have 11 or less, then you are better off with a Journeyman. If the niggled player makes player 13 then you are probably better having him as a second reserve, since you are likely to need to plug a gap at some point.
If nothing else, if your opponent is chasing your niggle, then he is leaving your gutters alone. That said, he would get the boot at the very first chance I got.
If you already have 11 or less, then you are better off with a Journeyman. If the niggled player makes player 13 then you are probably better having him as a second reserve, since you are likely to need to plug a gap at some point.
If nothing else, if your opponent is chasing your niggle, then he is leaving your gutters alone. That said, he would get the boot at the very first chance I got.
Posted by Garion on 2011-02-25 14:13:10
I second that, 13 players is preferable, niggle rats have their uses. LoS fodder.
Posted by Mateuszzzzzz on 2011-02-25 14:56:27
Dont like idea of new niggles in los (or in team at all)
Posted by DukeTyrion on 2011-02-25 15:05:36
I don't like the idea of niggles in the team either, but there may be times when it is needed (the 13 players scenario being one).
However, I wouldn't put them on the LoS either. There is enough chance of a LoS player going out without boosting my opponents chances of reducing my numbers. And if I did keep a niggled player for an extra game or two, then odds are he had a key skill I needed (kick or such) which means I need the skill on the pitch.
However, I wouldn't put them on the LoS either. There is enough chance of a LoS player going out without boosting my opponents chances of reducing my numbers. And if I did keep a niggled player for an extra game or two, then odds are he had a key skill I needed (kick or such) which means I need the skill on the pitch.
Posted by Garion on 2011-02-25 15:14:46
You score in turn 8 of the first half and then have to kick. Stick him in the LoS and hope he dies, then you can replace him at the end of the game. If your opponents are going to foul any of your rats better him than a healthy rat. That you are hoping to skill up.
But yes I wouldnt put him on the LoS in the first turn. It is situational. But I see all my linerats as completely expendable players except for the one with kick.
But yes I wouldnt put him on the LoS in the first turn. It is situational. But I see all my linerats as completely expendable players except for the one with kick.
Posted by srjuanone on 2011-02-25 15:37:55
I had a wrestle fend rat niggle, I put him in on the LOS during the first 3 matches, and he was hurt in the first turn of these 3 games. After the 3th game i fired him. he was 90k value and he played only 1 turn. If u put ur niggle on the LOS the first player that ur opponent put in front off him is his MB PO guy.
Posted by Garion on 2011-02-25 15:46:44
I would fire a niggle linerat with skills. To much of a TV hike for a worthless player.
I have a niggle rat in the team i posted below and he will not see the pitch unless I pick up other injuries and assuming i score in the last turn then I would put him on the LoS to die for my opponents final turn of the half. It helps protect your other rats, because as you say an opponent will stick their MB/PO player on him straight away.
I have a niggle rat in the team i posted below and he will not see the pitch unless I pick up other injuries and assuming i score in the last turn then I would put him on the LoS to die for my opponents final turn of the half. It helps protect your other rats, because as you say an opponent will stick their MB/PO player on him straight away.
Posted by Grod on 2011-02-25 17:48:20
Nerves of Steel is also an interesting choice for a "receiver" type Gutter Runner. Combine with Leap and Big Hand, and you have a player that is pretty unstoppable receiver, and can jump in and get a ball anywhere, then throw it away again.
Wrestle + Jump Up + Diving Tackle + Side Step can be a great combination for worrying the ball handler and playing from the ground..
Finally Guard Gutter runners are actually pretty good. Usually Gutter Runners find little gaps through which to Blitz ball carriers. Very often, you can sneak two Gutter Runners into that gap, and Guard makes the difference of a 1 or 2 dice block. In general, I like mobile Guard because you can get the Guard where you need it - next to the ball carrier.
Wrestle + Jump Up + Diving Tackle + Side Step can be a great combination for worrying the ball handler and playing from the ground..
Finally Guard Gutter runners are actually pretty good. Usually Gutter Runners find little gaps through which to Blitz ball carriers. Very often, you can sneak two Gutter Runners into that gap, and Guard makes the difference of a 1 or 2 dice block. In general, I like mobile Guard because you can get the Guard where you need it - next to the ball carrier.