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2015-04-27 12:05:36
12 votes, rating 5.6
12 votes, rating 5.6
A page from my Playbook - Fouling
Hi all,
I am just over 1100 games, and I would like to share my journey with fouling. As you will see my opinion has changed dramatically during my time here.
I fouled a lot and hard during LRB4, which I toned back significantly after the current ruleset was introduced. As many would expect the nerfing of foul, and elimination of the "eye" made fouling much harder, and riskier. During my 1st 1000 games at fummbl I fouled very conservatively, built teams with short bench. Fouling worked sometimes, but it was an accessory tool in my playbook.
That changed during my last 100 matches. I realized, that fouling can bring more attrition than killstack. With a reasonable bench I was able to decimate hard hitting teams. (Most of the damage was dealt to chaos team by my norse or amazon DP-ers.)
One aspect which may have not been discussed is that current ruleset produced much more legend players than LRB4 ever did, so the risk and reward ration is different also. Fouling is riskier, but the potential reward of eliminating 200-300 TV with one swing is also tantalizing.
So my view on fouling has changed completely. Fouling is still a premier strategy, although not for all teams. As TV is important, it depends on the cost of your bench. This sound rather obvious, but I needed almost 1000 games at fumbbl to realize, so maybe it is not obvious to everyone.
Fouling is strong enough, no need to increase its power. You could build a legitimate team at fouling. Just make sure it is consistent. You can also build it as your plan B. It is one of the best plan B for many teams.
I am just over 1100 games, and I would like to share my journey with fouling. As you will see my opinion has changed dramatically during my time here.
I fouled a lot and hard during LRB4, which I toned back significantly after the current ruleset was introduced. As many would expect the nerfing of foul, and elimination of the "eye" made fouling much harder, and riskier. During my 1st 1000 games at fummbl I fouled very conservatively, built teams with short bench. Fouling worked sometimes, but it was an accessory tool in my playbook.
That changed during my last 100 matches. I realized, that fouling can bring more attrition than killstack. With a reasonable bench I was able to decimate hard hitting teams. (Most of the damage was dealt to chaos team by my norse or amazon DP-ers.)
One aspect which may have not been discussed is that current ruleset produced much more legend players than LRB4 ever did, so the risk and reward ration is different also. Fouling is riskier, but the potential reward of eliminating 200-300 TV with one swing is also tantalizing.
So my view on fouling has changed completely. Fouling is still a premier strategy, although not for all teams. As TV is important, it depends on the cost of your bench. This sound rather obvious, but I needed almost 1000 games at fumbbl to realize, so maybe it is not obvious to everyone.
Fouling is strong enough, no need to increase its power. You could build a legitimate team at fouling. Just make sure it is consistent. You can also build it as your plan B. It is one of the best plan B for many teams.
Comments
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-04-27 12:23:06
In LRB4 you actually only ever got to place one foul before your ban chance got terribly high. In the new rules the ban chance is always pretty decent, meaning you can risk a lot more fouls than before.
In the beginning a lot of people argued fouling isn't good to handle CPOMB anymore, but it is actually very good for it and I have seen numerous people even foul on lying CPOMBERs without assists...
The main questions revolving around fouling are for me now:
Is it worth it to develop a Dirty Player or is it better to save the 20 tv and just to invest in a larger cheaper bench? Rather no dp...
And in game is it worth it to neglect my position to such a degree to do a foul? Depends..
And then ideally I should feel somewhat happy even if I just stun my opponent and not be terrified at the outlook to lose a player so a large bench is mandatory. ..I'm usually short on players..
What I also found is that fouling oddly often makes the most sense when the opponent is already down and has stopped fighting back :P.
In the beginning a lot of people argued fouling isn't good to handle CPOMB anymore, but it is actually very good for it and I have seen numerous people even foul on lying CPOMBERs without assists...
The main questions revolving around fouling are for me now:
Is it worth it to develop a Dirty Player or is it better to save the 20 tv and just to invest in a larger cheaper bench? Rather no dp...
And in game is it worth it to neglect my position to such a degree to do a foul? Depends..
And then ideally I should feel somewhat happy even if I just stun my opponent and not be terrified at the outlook to lose a player so a large bench is mandatory. ..I'm usually short on players..
What I also found is that fouling oddly often makes the most sense when the opponent is already down and has stopped fighting back :P.
Posted by bghandras on 2015-04-27 12:26:48
I will skip the last point, I am concentrating on strategy, and leave emotions aside.
So If you have a team with cheap linos, then you could realistically have 13-14 players (I had 15 at my last match), and reverse the 2-1 grind. You can "concede" the 1st half when the opponent is attacking, and eliminate as many players as possible. No need to worry about the loss of players, as you will get 10-11 players back most of the time, if you are clever. (You need to use the apo on the BH, not on the STAR niggle, etc, and you may not foul every turn, but you can manage your game effectively.)
Then it is relatively easy to field a 3-4 turn score against the opponent, and eliminate a few more players. Then you can field the winning score in about 4 turns.
This works wonderfully against fully min-maxed teams with 11 players. This works so well, that I consider having a 2nd fouler (and from the 1000 topic you know that I only field a backup at the most critical position). So hell yes, DP is worth the 20k.
So If you have a team with cheap linos, then you could realistically have 13-14 players (I had 15 at my last match), and reverse the 2-1 grind. You can "concede" the 1st half when the opponent is attacking, and eliminate as many players as possible. No need to worry about the loss of players, as you will get 10-11 players back most of the time, if you are clever. (You need to use the apo on the BH, not on the STAR niggle, etc, and you may not foul every turn, but you can manage your game effectively.)
Then it is relatively easy to field a 3-4 turn score against the opponent, and eliminate a few more players. Then you can field the winning score in about 4 turns.
This works wonderfully against fully min-maxed teams with 11 players. This works so well, that I consider having a 2nd fouler (and from the 1000 topic you know that I only field a backup at the most critical position). So hell yes, DP is worth the 20k.
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-04-27 12:42:56
Well, bghandras... did you get to 2nd place in ranked by neglecting the first half in casual games?
Because to me that seems like a hell of a gamble..
Because to me that seems like a hell of a gamble..
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-04-27 12:43:57
Actually now i wanna play you...
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-04-27 12:53:25
Although... I should probably add that I don't disagree with you on hiring dp on a team like you outline...
The more interesting question is... would you buy a dp on an 11 player team or one that is just somewhat scratching by with 12?
Also, lets take flings for instance... they are 30 tv on their own... would you up one to 60 just to get +1 on the foul roll? cuz, imagine... that could be rather 2 unmodified fouls if you had 16 instead of 15 players there..
The more interesting question is... would you buy a dp on an 11 player team or one that is just somewhat scratching by with 12?
Also, lets take flings for instance... they are 30 tv on their own... would you up one to 60 just to get +1 on the foul roll? cuz, imagine... that could be rather 2 unmodified fouls if you had 16 instead of 15 players there..
Posted by bghandras on 2015-04-27 12:56:50
This is one strategy. Not the strategy for all games.
Plus you could very well foul without DP. That works too. Like blitzing without MB.
Plus you could very well foul without DP. That works too. Like blitzing without MB.
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-04-27 13:07:17
wreckage: Fouls 5584 6496 -912 1.48
bghandras: Fouls 411 1031 -620 0.37
pfft, and I think I don't foul much...
but one thing is for sure... if that is a winning tactic for anyone, it ain't one for you ;P.
bghandras: Fouls 411 1031 -620 0.37
pfft, and I think I don't foul much...
but one thing is for sure... if that is a winning tactic for anyone, it ain't one for you ;P.
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-04-27 13:13:05
Thanks again btw, for all the work you put into the other thread, I really appreciate it. Without you that whole thread would have probably fallen apart. So really, thanks. You have a great analytical mind.
Posted by bghandras on 2015-04-27 13:22:43
Thanks. And as I said I almost never fouled during my 1st 1000 games. So my average was much lower 100 games before. :)
Posted by Harad on 2015-04-27 14:36:51
I am terrible at fouling. Maybe it's my minmaxing leaving my squads thin, maybe it's that I think of it as an after thought.
Yes I know the tongue in cheek advice of fouling but I'd be interested in serious input. My problem is that after my blocks I normally need my other players to protect the ball and am not so clever at brining down players in a way that you can lay the boot.
Yes I know the tongue in cheek advice of fouling but I'd be interested in serious input. My problem is that after my blocks I normally need my other players to protect the ball and am not so clever at brining down players in a way that you can lay the boot.
Posted by Leilond on 2015-04-27 14:56:00
+1 to Harad
Never find the right player to do it... always think that he is better doing something else and sadly leave that easy foul undone, with the feeling that I should have found a way to foul him
Never find the right player to do it... always think that he is better doing something else and sadly leave that easy foul undone, with the feeling that I should have found a way to foul him
Posted by PaddyMick on 2015-04-27 16:27:28
I am going to try a full on fouling strategy with this team : https://www.fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=802333
I figure Norse are best for fouling and cpomb hunting. They are cheap, immune to claw, great value all having block, and I prefer this to dodge (zons) as i will be spamming DP and Fend and ignoring stats and doubles except on the lone runner. Thrower is a leader caddy. This will be a fun min/max but max bench project I hope.
I figure Norse are best for fouling and cpomb hunting. They are cheap, immune to claw, great value all having block, and I prefer this to dodge (zons) as i will be spamming DP and Fend and ignoring stats and doubles except on the lone runner. Thrower is a leader caddy. This will be a fun min/max but max bench project I hope.
Posted by bghandras on 2015-04-27 16:34:52
2 things are going. First of all Norse are awesome at fouling. Beside that I figured that there is not much skill a norse lino can take beyond dp. Yes, there is tackle and fend, but meh...
Secondly if you keep your opponent equally busy, and the drive is not decided (in other words you have a fair chance to accomplish something), then it is ok, don't foul. On the other hand if it is decided one way or the other, then you should prioritise between chances. I would say in those cases your position does not matter much, and you can foul. You should not do that when the opponent is full of players, and he may come back to the drive, but generally it may work. I lost many 1st halfs recently by 1-0, but trimmed the opposition, and worked back to a 1-1 draw or a 2-1 win. Necro, Amazon, and Norse come to my mind as perfect teams for that, but I also plan to give it a try with chaos dwarves.
Secondly if you keep your opponent equally busy, and the drive is not decided (in other words you have a fair chance to accomplish something), then it is ok, don't foul. On the other hand if it is decided one way or the other, then you should prioritise between chances. I would say in those cases your position does not matter much, and you can foul. You should not do that when the opponent is full of players, and he may come back to the drive, but generally it may work. I lost many 1st halfs recently by 1-0, but trimmed the opposition, and worked back to a 1-1 draw or a 2-1 win. Necro, Amazon, and Norse come to my mind as perfect teams for that, but I also plan to give it a try with chaos dwarves.
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-04-27 17:33:41
) have been going through big_piranhas games to see if i find a match like he outlines and actually did.. https://fumbbl.com/p/match?op=view&id=3677219...
The team is clearly designed for the purpose he outlines... it's stacked with players, runs only one dp tho... the other team is a streamlined 11 player chaos cpomb team...
the first half ends with the zons losing on cas and in score...
but because they don't have reserves and the zons do, they can't come back second half...
What I also notice is that by now piranha has already cut the team back down to 12 players....
The team is clearly designed for the purpose he outlines... it's stacked with players, runs only one dp tho... the other team is a streamlined 11 player chaos cpomb team...
the first half ends with the zons losing on cas and in score...
but because they don't have reserves and the zons do, they can't come back second half...
What I also notice is that by now piranha has already cut the team back down to 12 players....
Posted by bghandras on 2015-04-27 17:40:18
See also this.
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3676898
I was lucky that I did not lose the 1st half. But to be honest my priority was not to stop the score, but to inflict damage. It is much easier to foul when the opponent has to think about the score. At the end I was lucky, and had both objectives. But this is also a case study for the topic at hand.
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3676898
I was lucky that I did not lose the 1st half. But to be honest my priority was not to stop the score, but to inflict damage. It is much easier to foul when the opponent has to think about the score. At the end I was lucky, and had both objectives. But this is also a case study for the topic at hand.
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-04-27 17:42:54
You do actually only 4 fouls in this game...
Posted by bghandras on 2015-04-27 17:48:06
Yes, I skipped the garbage time fouls. My bad, I apologize. :)
Back to business: I think those meaningful fouls did a lot to win the game.
Back to business: I think those meaningful fouls did a lot to win the game.
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-04-27 17:49:44
That's also kinda what I meant:
You start with an early lucky successful foul, then you crowd a second player.
Suddenly it's 9:11 on the pitch... your opponent is a little overwhelmed but now you have the numbers. Your opponent is already kinda down and you keep pushing and continue to foul. Because he has no numbers on you he can't do anything about it.. It's a classic 'the bully rubs it in' scenario. ;)
You start with an early lucky successful foul, then you crowd a second player.
Suddenly it's 9:11 on the pitch... your opponent is a little overwhelmed but now you have the numbers. Your opponent is already kinda down and you keep pushing and continue to foul. Because he has no numbers on you he can't do anything about it.. It's a classic 'the bully rubs it in' scenario. ;)
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-04-27 17:54:38
I think the game deciding event was actually the chain push.
I mean, I have been there, it has happened to me, but that was really it. That's where he loses the game.
It's one of these situations where you can do everything right (speaking from his perspective) but just by getting there he has already lost.
Essentially what you do is: You take his key players out of the game and it doesn't matter whatever the hell he is going to do, or how well he is going to play because when you got no players, you're done..
I mean, I have been there, it has happened to me, but that was really it. That's where he loses the game.
It's one of these situations where you can do everything right (speaking from his perspective) but just by getting there he has already lost.
Essentially what you do is: You take his key players out of the game and it doesn't matter whatever the hell he is going to do, or how well he is going to play because when you got no players, you're done..
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-04-27 18:01:49
The fouls were absolutely critical to win of course (from your perspective). It's just... precisely when you compare those two games, in this one you get those good few fouls because you got the numbers, he's got a lot on the ground, while in the other game where you do 10 fouls and actually only ever get a foot on the ground by half 2, you're fouling for scraps with 1 assist on marginal players because you don't got the numbers..
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-04-27 18:05:07
If I were the chaos guy I'd be thinking about this game for like a week and I'd just keep thinking: Damn' why did I have to put my CW there and did not just grind through the middle?
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-04-27 18:18:41
Damn, I shouldn't spam other peoples blogs, sorry.
Posted by albinv on 2015-04-27 19:08:02
In the past my first foul was almost always done first turn. Then you gang up on the second one, mark the important stuff a bit with your leftovers so if dices let you down you are at least not completely caught pants down.
Pretty much like Wreckage describes, if your lucky and it works out, your opponents jaw will drop down immediately and his eyes pop out (his brain too) in a complete state of shock.
Im not sure if its worse than a good rolling stackteam - but it certainly feels more devastating, challenging and thrilling - it feels classy to me.
Now that is classy mad fun already but the real fear and loathing starts when you actually begin to advance by fouling - rushing the whole gang to the next most valuable target ofc using GFIs like a madman!
Then next target a few yards in front - "cage up" there and finish your game soldier style. Kick them on left wide sides, then run the whole gang to right wide side and stomp it there.
Its fun because it means you leave quite a few of his left menz untagged - so he constantly feels there might be a chance still, while at the same time he is in complete dispair and disbelief ofc.
And there might be a chance for him ofc with a lucky play or if you funk it up - or simply fail on all those mad 2+ rolls in the wrong moment.
A fine thing to do when he should have managed to indeed get a sacker and some players in reach of your gang is - OFC- to just run half of them backfields again to foul a prone player there again! ;DD And yes - you RUB it in constantly while he feels there is a chance for the ball if he keeps being disciplined.
Necros, Undead and probably pretty damn well Zons too (havent tried) can play this kind of foul play if you go that brute first foul way and it pulls through. Its funny cause it feels like you also working with positioning a bit, at least you will outrun the opponent as well most of the time. It isnt really positioning ofc. And the whole thing is based on the hope of good initial rolls anyway. If it works its crazy tho, feels like bowling in bat country or something.
And you always leave a chance for the opponent dont you? ^^
Interesting Blog. Interesting that such good coaches as Wreckage and bghandras are interested in fouling and even think it could be stronger than back in LRB4. I dont think so personally. But i so far have only roughly scanned the blog.
Nowadays i almost never foul first turn...i might wait for the odd 1 man advantage at least before placing the first boot. :( Its all pretty boring and conventional what i try to play these days. But i still try to rise my foul count constantly while targeting a decent win percentage/ record.
I definitely think it is possible for some races under CRP to foul very efficient. I thought about it - but probably only came up with some really basic ideas and so far havent tried anything really methocially i would want to achieve in BB. :/
It certainly comes down to good positioning (as that is the highest principle and what its all about in the end).
You need more assists under CRP (in general), i think that cant be avoided, so any top fumbbl coach - which actually really understands positioning and has his focus on it could be a great fouler i think. There are coaches on the site which can combine insane foul rates per match and really good records/ ratings.
He just needs the will for more risk and to focus his positioning so that he will not only have the carrier in his cage but also a prone player to boot every turn ;) - to give a cheap/ bad metaphor. And honestly - as good as a lot of guys play here - there should be plenty of room for fouling if one decided to. There should be some adrenaline and fun factor in return.
Ah, fouling...its like snacking crisps the crackling sound of breaking armor...you know you shouldnt, but you just cant stop.
If i approach for a foul it feels as if i was putting my ears on a railroad track to hear if a train is coming....will or wont you hear the crackling sound of braking armor? CRUNCH!! Gah! SPLAT! FLUSH! Yes baby, oh yes....
=D
Pretty much like Wreckage describes, if your lucky and it works out, your opponents jaw will drop down immediately and his eyes pop out (his brain too) in a complete state of shock.
Im not sure if its worse than a good rolling stackteam - but it certainly feels more devastating, challenging and thrilling - it feels classy to me.
Now that is classy mad fun already but the real fear and loathing starts when you actually begin to advance by fouling - rushing the whole gang to the next most valuable target ofc using GFIs like a madman!
Then next target a few yards in front - "cage up" there and finish your game soldier style. Kick them on left wide sides, then run the whole gang to right wide side and stomp it there.
Its fun because it means you leave quite a few of his left menz untagged - so he constantly feels there might be a chance still, while at the same time he is in complete dispair and disbelief ofc.
And there might be a chance for him ofc with a lucky play or if you funk it up - or simply fail on all those mad 2+ rolls in the wrong moment.
A fine thing to do when he should have managed to indeed get a sacker and some players in reach of your gang is - OFC- to just run half of them backfields again to foul a prone player there again! ;DD And yes - you RUB it in constantly while he feels there is a chance for the ball if he keeps being disciplined.
Necros, Undead and probably pretty damn well Zons too (havent tried) can play this kind of foul play if you go that brute first foul way and it pulls through. Its funny cause it feels like you also working with positioning a bit, at least you will outrun the opponent as well most of the time. It isnt really positioning ofc. And the whole thing is based on the hope of good initial rolls anyway. If it works its crazy tho, feels like bowling in bat country or something.
And you always leave a chance for the opponent dont you? ^^
Interesting Blog. Interesting that such good coaches as Wreckage and bghandras are interested in fouling and even think it could be stronger than back in LRB4. I dont think so personally. But i so far have only roughly scanned the blog.
Nowadays i almost never foul first turn...i might wait for the odd 1 man advantage at least before placing the first boot. :( Its all pretty boring and conventional what i try to play these days. But i still try to rise my foul count constantly while targeting a decent win percentage/ record.
I definitely think it is possible for some races under CRP to foul very efficient. I thought about it - but probably only came up with some really basic ideas and so far havent tried anything really methocially i would want to achieve in BB. :/
It certainly comes down to good positioning (as that is the highest principle and what its all about in the end).
You need more assists under CRP (in general), i think that cant be avoided, so any top fumbbl coach - which actually really understands positioning and has his focus on it could be a great fouler i think. There are coaches on the site which can combine insane foul rates per match and really good records/ ratings.
He just needs the will for more risk and to focus his positioning so that he will not only have the carrier in his cage but also a prone player to boot every turn ;) - to give a cheap/ bad metaphor. And honestly - as good as a lot of guys play here - there should be plenty of room for fouling if one decided to. There should be some adrenaline and fun factor in return.
Ah, fouling...its like snacking crisps the crackling sound of breaking armor...you know you shouldnt, but you just cant stop.
If i approach for a foul it feels as if i was putting my ears on a railroad track to hear if a train is coming....will or wont you hear the crackling sound of braking armor? CRUNCH!! Gah! SPLAT! FLUSH! Yes baby, oh yes....
=D
Posted by albinv on 2015-04-27 19:10:28
Oh yeah. Got carried away a bit. I guess that wasnt interesting or useful at all. Got carried away... ;)
Posted by albinv on 2015-04-27 19:28:07
Both of you guys tho have the fluffiest foul rates really. Although without question you could be great foulers easily...*rolls eyes*
Pansy pants! :D
Pansy pants! :D
Posted by bghandras on 2015-04-27 19:57:56
Great read, thanks guys. Very interesting conversation. Do not stop yourself especially Albinv and Wreckage
@Wreckage: You are right that those 2 games were different in the way they turned out. My point is though that I had the same mindset going into the game. And of course I evolved my tactic accordingly, which lead to easier and more difficult tasks. It is also clear that the norse achieved both objectives, while the zons achieved only 1 of them. Both were enough for the victory, so I think there is still a point over there.
...Plus there were other games where I had the same mindset, but did not achieve the fouling goal, but may or may not achieved the other goals. And of course I had a necromantic affair (necro vs khemri I guess) where I had zero plan going into fouling, but actually switched over after the game took an "ugly" turn.
I concede that the sample size is small, but there is this fouling thing which is creeping into my playbooks. There is defenetly something into it. It is not strong enough to be the plan A for all teams all the time, but a plan nevertheless.
@Wreckage: You are right that those 2 games were different in the way they turned out. My point is though that I had the same mindset going into the game. And of course I evolved my tactic accordingly, which lead to easier and more difficult tasks. It is also clear that the norse achieved both objectives, while the zons achieved only 1 of them. Both were enough for the victory, so I think there is still a point over there.
...Plus there were other games where I had the same mindset, but did not achieve the fouling goal, but may or may not achieved the other goals. And of course I had a necromantic affair (necro vs khemri I guess) where I had zero plan going into fouling, but actually switched over after the game took an "ugly" turn.
I concede that the sample size is small, but there is this fouling thing which is creeping into my playbooks. There is defenetly something into it. It is not strong enough to be the plan A for all teams all the time, but a plan nevertheless.
Posted by bghandras on 2015-04-27 20:08:43
I have just fouled 1st turn with norse vs Cd.
Posted by bghandras on 2015-04-27 20:12:15
Also 2nd turn.
Posted by Jeffro on 2015-04-28 02:49:31
Norse teams are great at fouling. Join the club!!
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=702009
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=702009
Posted by bghandras on 2015-04-28 09:22:07
I like the principal, but I don't agree with the team building rules. I pretty much want to have 2 runners and 2 ulfs as soon as I can reasonably manage them all.
Posted by albinv on 2015-04-28 12:24:17
Following the debate/ little project. Awesome you guys do the brainwork and i can maybe reap one or the other rule of thumb from it.
I cant take this game serious in the end (i could if major parts of foundational rules were rewritten from scratch). While i still want to play competitively - win a lot and if possible in unlikely ways like mass fouling. So i will probably never get to my goals myself.
That shall not distract from the fact im an idiot (which i must be by principal according to the logics or perception of most top fumbbl coaches/ nerds).
Probably both is a bit true. Im an idiot and also the game was never meant to be played as competitive and in the way we do it now.
If there is a conceptional flaw anywhere i might be among the first who will leave.
Keep fouling and show us how its done. Have fun.
I cant take this game serious in the end (i could if major parts of foundational rules were rewritten from scratch). While i still want to play competitively - win a lot and if possible in unlikely ways like mass fouling. So i will probably never get to my goals myself.
That shall not distract from the fact im an idiot (which i must be by principal according to the logics or perception of most top fumbbl coaches/ nerds).
Probably both is a bit true. Im an idiot and also the game was never meant to be played as competitive and in the way we do it now.
If there is a conceptional flaw anywhere i might be among the first who will leave.
Keep fouling and show us how its done. Have fun.