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2013-05-14 00:32:52
22 votes, rating 3.1
22 votes, rating 3.1
Shades of Red
So for the 2nd time in succession, I seem to have caused a bit of controversy albeit less intentionally this time.
So apparently clearing the pitch in OT isn't cool; I seem to be getting a heap of criticism for this. Even though I'm almost certain other coaches have done this in this year's GLT! However I guess there was less drama attached to those matches.
I'm curious though, because I'm certain a ton of these criticisms are coming coaches who love a good T15/T16 foul. That's OK, but cleaning up in OT isn't?
The ultimate irony is that even Oryx didn't have any complaints about the cleared pitch ("Even I [Oryx] cheered that!") yet that's the bit I get heat for. Crazy.
I thought this was the Majors. What the hell happened to, "Welcome to the Majors!" Has Fumbbl gone soft? Is Blood Red no longer the way it's meant to be? Are we after a pale stain from a grazed elbow these days?
So apparently clearing the pitch in OT isn't cool; I seem to be getting a heap of criticism for this. Even though I'm almost certain other coaches have done this in this year's GLT! However I guess there was less drama attached to those matches.
I'm curious though, because I'm certain a ton of these criticisms are coming coaches who love a good T15/T16 foul. That's OK, but cleaning up in OT isn't?
The ultimate irony is that even Oryx didn't have any complaints about the cleared pitch ("Even I [Oryx] cheered that!") yet that's the bit I get heat for. Crazy.
I thought this was the Majors. What the hell happened to, "Welcome to the Majors!" Has Fumbbl gone soft? Is Blood Red no longer the way it's meant to be? Are we after a pale stain from a grazed elbow these days?
Comments
Posted by licker on 2013-05-14 01:02:56
Everyone is going to have a different opinion on it.
Personally I don't get off on cleared pitches, but many coaches seem to think they matter for some reason, so whatever.
Maybe it's because I coach minors softball, but sportsmanship matters to me. Clearly, this is the internet, and clearly, this is FUMBBL, and clearly the definition of sportsmanship is not the same as it would be for youth sports (or most any sport for that matter). I recognize and accept that.
Still, I do get a feeling from time to time that the mentality on FUMBBL has moved over some line which I don't think makes FUMBBL a better place.
People (and rule sets) largely seem to have moved away from fluff and more into however you want to lump min/max/cpomb/cheese.
Good bad or other, well that's up to each individual. For my money it's more bad than either of the other two.
If you have a game won, then just win it. I get the arguments for farming spp, but mostly I find them unsatisfactory, especially if they come at the expense of the other coach simply getting pounded. I don't get the whole foul them off the pitch once the game is effectively over bit though. I mean I get it, I just find it to be a sign of an utter lack of respect for the opponent.
Personally I don't get off on cleared pitches, but many coaches seem to think they matter for some reason, so whatever.
Maybe it's because I coach minors softball, but sportsmanship matters to me. Clearly, this is the internet, and clearly, this is FUMBBL, and clearly the definition of sportsmanship is not the same as it would be for youth sports (or most any sport for that matter). I recognize and accept that.
Still, I do get a feeling from time to time that the mentality on FUMBBL has moved over some line which I don't think makes FUMBBL a better place.
People (and rule sets) largely seem to have moved away from fluff and more into however you want to lump min/max/cpomb/cheese.
Good bad or other, well that's up to each individual. For my money it's more bad than either of the other two.
If you have a game won, then just win it. I get the arguments for farming spp, but mostly I find them unsatisfactory, especially if they come at the expense of the other coach simply getting pounded. I don't get the whole foul them off the pitch once the game is effectively over bit though. I mean I get it, I just find it to be a sign of an utter lack of respect for the opponent.
Posted by C3I2 on 2013-05-14 01:12:58
Its a golden goal, and you can score and dont do it.
Any RL sports tournament and you would get penalized afterwards, disqualification and probably a timed ban +++ penalty fees.
Any RL sports tournament and you would get penalized afterwards, disqualification and probably a timed ban +++ penalty fees.
Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-05-14 01:15:26
Name me the RL sport where you get rewarded for killing your opponents, C132, then I'll agree with you.
Posted by GronxWild on 2013-05-14 01:18:42
it s a mayor, just ENJOY!!
Posted by C3I2 on 2013-05-14 01:19:34
Well, that would be American Football; it only takes 20 years or so, for the damage to catch up.
Posted by oryx on 2013-05-14 01:33:03
I also feel the mindset shift... I feel life it was better in the dp data, but that is probably some rose colored glasses crap.
Pitch clears used to be awesome because they were rare. I still cheer them anyway, though... If you're close, you might as well go all the way
Pitch clears used to be awesome because they were rare. I still cheer them anyway, though... If you're close, you might as well go all the way
Posted by Kam on 2013-05-14 01:36:40
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3437119
I am the other coach CS was talking about. I did the very same things a few hours earlier, under similar circumstances, for the very same reasons (I believe).
The game went overtime, I managed to get the ball, and my opponent had 4 players left on the pitch when I decided to clear it. One of them failed or dodge or a GFI, and I surfed / fouled the other 3. I knew I wouldn't get any SPP doing so.
My opponent complained a lot during the game. Everyone can have a bad and feel frustrated, especially in a major - it happens. He even apologized later on and I don't have any strong feeling towards him at all. I didn't clear the pitch because he was whining. But in the meantime, I probably wouldn't have done it if he hadn't been complaining so much.
I did it for the show. Specs love blood, and most of them like to see a pitch cleared (and why would I play flings in a major if it wasn't for the show anyway?). I also did it to make a point. Or for the fluff, call that how you like. "Don't mess with my team" - a pitch cleared brings some weight to this statement.
Now the thing is... I didn't get any complain. I'm not as controversial as CS, and I play flings. That puts everybody in a good mood. But when you think about it... What's the difference? You don't have to have a stunty team to play for the show, or to have some fluff around your team. The fact you play flings doesn't make a t22 foul better either, when you could have scored instead.
That being said, do we really need so many post-game dramas?
I am the other coach CS was talking about. I did the very same things a few hours earlier, under similar circumstances, for the very same reasons (I believe).
The game went overtime, I managed to get the ball, and my opponent had 4 players left on the pitch when I decided to clear it. One of them failed or dodge or a GFI, and I surfed / fouled the other 3. I knew I wouldn't get any SPP doing so.
My opponent complained a lot during the game. Everyone can have a bad and feel frustrated, especially in a major - it happens. He even apologized later on and I don't have any strong feeling towards him at all. I didn't clear the pitch because he was whining. But in the meantime, I probably wouldn't have done it if he hadn't been complaining so much.
I did it for the show. Specs love blood, and most of them like to see a pitch cleared (and why would I play flings in a major if it wasn't for the show anyway?). I also did it to make a point. Or for the fluff, call that how you like. "Don't mess with my team" - a pitch cleared brings some weight to this statement.
Now the thing is... I didn't get any complain. I'm not as controversial as CS, and I play flings. That puts everybody in a good mood. But when you think about it... What's the difference? You don't have to have a stunty team to play for the show, or to have some fluff around your team. The fact you play flings doesn't make a t22 foul better either, when you could have scored instead.
That being said, do we really need so many post-game dramas?
Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-05-14 01:53:28
I'm pretty sure there was another one Kam.
I was aware of yours but also aware comparisons to flings are not going to go down well. I can't remember who the other one was.
I was aware of yours but also aware comparisons to flings are not going to go down well. I can't remember who the other one was.
Posted by Endzone on 2013-05-14 02:59:49
I think that can be thought of two different ways and I think both views are valid. If you are looking at it from a sportsmanship / respect to opponent point of view then it does not look great. But if you are looking at it from a fluff / show perspective then it makes sense. Imagine this was an epic game from the edition 2 fluff. I guess if you are considering a play like this the thing is to honestly ask yourself why you are doing it. If you are genuinely doing it because you it adds to the drama and the story and you can take the inevitable flack fair enough. If you are just doing it to be an arse ask yourself if that is who you really want to be.
Posted by Araznaroth on 2013-05-14 04:04:35
I've commented on this in the other blog but I'll say this one for cleared pitches; I've had a coach ask me if it was okay to foul my last player who had been stunned to try and get his first cleared pitch. My reply was that Id be offended if he didn't try. Not saying you should always aim for it.
And as I see it [url=https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=737440]justice[/url] has prevziled!!! ;D
And as I see it [url=https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=737440]justice[/url] has prevziled!!! ;D
Posted by Nelphine on 2013-05-14 04:31:42
My only issue with Chainsaw is that he always manages to do it in a manner which comes across as irritating. If you can banter with the other coach and you're both having fun, then by all means, OT pitch clear indeed!
That being said, I had no problem with his pitch clear against Oryx because of the whining, which was excessive to me.
THAT being said, I had no problem with the whining because Chainsaw simply doesn't across as someone who happens to pitch clear in the process of having a fun game, and to try to include the opponent in the joy that is a pitch clear when that magical moment happens (such as lizardman vs norse, turn 16, and there is... 1 saurus left on the pitch! the other 24 players have all been removed); instead he aims for the pitch clear as a goal to be reached in ORDER to have a fun game, which makes it much harder to include the opponent since you are setting out to destroy him from the start. (Whether this is an accurate portrayal of Chainsaw, I have no idea. This is just my impression.)
This I think is the key problem with clawpomb for me; clawpombers (and to a lesser extent, pombers as they have arisen in the shadow of clawpomb) are trying to pitch clear, regardless of how the game goes. This makes the pitch clear a cold harsh objective, and if you don't manage it, you have failed, and if you fail, the game isn't all that fun.
On the other hand, a team like Kam's, or a team with no clawpomb, or a team that has mighty blow but little or no piling on, who gets close to that infamous pitch clear; well, both coaches see this gem and are both included in the spectacle, and the game somehow shifts and both are secretly rooting for it in order to be part of it.
And a clawpomb team CAN have that feel, especially if they play in a manner where destruction isn't the goal; and then suddenly the magical pitch clear arises, and both coaches are awed by it (my Nurgle have managed this, and I've had coaches comment on the fact that I don't play to destroy, despite my team bio. Obviously I've also had coaches who hated my Nurgleand declared me a pure destructionist, and since I have a clawpomber, I can't argue), but it's much harder to achieve.
That being said, I had no problem with his pitch clear against Oryx because of the whining, which was excessive to me.
THAT being said, I had no problem with the whining because Chainsaw simply doesn't across as someone who happens to pitch clear in the process of having a fun game, and to try to include the opponent in the joy that is a pitch clear when that magical moment happens (such as lizardman vs norse, turn 16, and there is... 1 saurus left on the pitch! the other 24 players have all been removed); instead he aims for the pitch clear as a goal to be reached in ORDER to have a fun game, which makes it much harder to include the opponent since you are setting out to destroy him from the start. (Whether this is an accurate portrayal of Chainsaw, I have no idea. This is just my impression.)
This I think is the key problem with clawpomb for me; clawpombers (and to a lesser extent, pombers as they have arisen in the shadow of clawpomb) are trying to pitch clear, regardless of how the game goes. This makes the pitch clear a cold harsh objective, and if you don't manage it, you have failed, and if you fail, the game isn't all that fun.
On the other hand, a team like Kam's, or a team with no clawpomb, or a team that has mighty blow but little or no piling on, who gets close to that infamous pitch clear; well, both coaches see this gem and are both included in the spectacle, and the game somehow shifts and both are secretly rooting for it in order to be part of it.
And a clawpomb team CAN have that feel, especially if they play in a manner where destruction isn't the goal; and then suddenly the magical pitch clear arises, and both coaches are awed by it (my Nurgle have managed this, and I've had coaches comment on the fact that I don't play to destroy, despite my team bio. Obviously I've also had coaches who hated my Nurgleand declared me a pure destructionist, and since I have a clawpomber, I can't argue), but it's much harder to achieve.
Posted by licker on 2013-05-14 05:39:17
A pitch clear during the normal course of a game is great (if not quite so impressive anymore). A pitch clear where you could simply walk it in in OT for the win is pathetic.
With the caveat being that the opponent is either running away from you or just leaving his players prone. I've got nothing against setting up blocks/blitzes if they are possible, though I still think that not winning in regulation when you have the ability to do so, just to milk spp in OT is even more pathetic.
As others have said, if you fluff it yourself, and make it entertaining, then there's a place for it. If you're just trying to grind out some 'free' spp and are generally unpleasant and don't bother with fluff, then you're part of the problem many of us have with the current state of FUMBBL+CRP.
That's not a statement on what's ultimately right or wrong, only Christer and the admins really get a say there.
With the caveat being that the opponent is either running away from you or just leaving his players prone. I've got nothing against setting up blocks/blitzes if they are possible, though I still think that not winning in regulation when you have the ability to do so, just to milk spp in OT is even more pathetic.
As others have said, if you fluff it yourself, and make it entertaining, then there's a place for it. If you're just trying to grind out some 'free' spp and are generally unpleasant and don't bother with fluff, then you're part of the problem many of us have with the current state of FUMBBL+CRP.
That's not a statement on what's ultimately right or wrong, only Christer and the admins really get a say there.
Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-05-14 10:58:11
"[Chainsaw] aims for the pitch clear as a goal to be reached in ORDER to have a fun game"
Congratulations Nelphine. One of the most stupid sentences ever to be written on Fumbbl. And that's a pretty high bar.
- C
Congratulations Nelphine. One of the most stupid sentences ever to be written on Fumbbl. And that's a pretty high bar.
- C
Posted by Prez on 2013-05-14 12:49:19
Well done, absolutely no qualms about clearing the pitch, its a Major,
its a feat in itself,
you can do it just because,
Its a game!
Evidently fun
I would do the same :)
GL in the next round
its a feat in itself,
you can do it just because,
Its a game!
Evidently fun
I would do the same :)
GL in the next round
Posted by the.tok on 2013-05-14 13:36:00
Don't get what was wrong with that pitch clearing...
Elves deserve to be pitch cleared, whiners deserve to be pitch cleared, and it's a major come on !
To me whining is not included in sportsmanship for sure.
Pitch clearing is more of a grey area, but there was a game were I consider it appropriate
Elves deserve to be pitch cleared, whiners deserve to be pitch cleared, and it's a major come on !
To me whining is not included in sportsmanship for sure.
Pitch clearing is more of a grey area, but there was a game were I consider it appropriate
Posted by PurpleChest on 2013-05-14 13:49:29
To me the perfect Majors game contains good coaching, good teams, good plays, drama, excitement, tension, heroes and villains and coaches doing everything they can to win the game. Afterwards i would hope if they met in RL they would be able, and want, to shake each others hand.
If this isn't true for you, especially the hand shake bit, then i think you have good reason to examine your sportsmanship and game playing mindset.
If this isn't true for you, especially the hand shake bit, then i think you have good reason to examine your sportsmanship and game playing mindset.
Posted by oryx on 2013-05-14 13:55:00
I can't speak for Chainsaw, and obviously he wasn't pleased with the amount of ranting and carrying on that I engaged in. And as he mentioned he won't rush to play me again. Nevertheless, I don't feel like there is a feud between us.
Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-05-14 14:00:53
You obviously didn't spec the game PC.
I'm more than happy to shake hands after a game, but that whining was something else.
He's even shamelessly bragging about it see his blog:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=blog&coach=22089
I don't think he would have done that in real life - whined non-stop for an hour and a half in somebody's face. So it's a different context. I doubt anybody would be able to do that in person, especially with spectators.
As Oryx says, there is no feud. In fact my blog doesn't even reference the whining (although inevitably the comments have lead it that way).
I'm more than happy to shake hands after a game, but that whining was something else.
He's even shamelessly bragging about it see his blog:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=blog&coach=22089
I don't think he would have done that in real life - whined non-stop for an hour and a half in somebody's face. So it's a different context. I doubt anybody would be able to do that in person, especially with spectators.
As Oryx says, there is no feud. In fact my blog doesn't even reference the whining (although inevitably the comments have lead it that way).
Posted by oryx on 2013-05-14 21:09:39
I wouldn't whine in person, and you wouldn't go out of your way to destroy my team in person. And if either of us did either of those things in person, we would start drama that would eventually unravel the league.
I'm ok with the fact that you're using a brutal team and fun-destroying tactics - why aren't you ok with my brutal, fun-destroying ranting?
It's like an exchange. Feel free to kill all my pixels. Feel free to foul past the point where it has any meaning, other than revenge. Feel free to po every turn, and please freely accept the reaction it stirs in me.
Because a lot of people feel that way, even if they aren't as free to express it. A lot of those people have quit - and maybe I should follow them - but I haven't yet. And until I do, I don't see why you should get to be a brutal, fun-killing player yet I'm somehow a terrible person for being a brutal, fun-killing whiner.
I'm ok with the fact that you're using a brutal team and fun-destroying tactics - why aren't you ok with my brutal, fun-destroying ranting?
It's like an exchange. Feel free to kill all my pixels. Feel free to foul past the point where it has any meaning, other than revenge. Feel free to po every turn, and please freely accept the reaction it stirs in me.
Because a lot of people feel that way, even if they aren't as free to express it. A lot of those people have quit - and maybe I should follow them - but I haven't yet. And until I do, I don't see why you should get to be a brutal, fun-killing player yet I'm somehow a terrible person for being a brutal, fun-killing whiner.
Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-05-14 22:04:59
If you hate the mechanics of the game...
a) play a different game
b) play the game differently
Not c) be an idiot about it
I absolutely would play the same way in person. I absolutely would use the mechanics of the game as it stands. I absolutely would have pombers and dirty players.
a) play a different game
b) play the game differently
Not c) be an idiot about it
I absolutely would play the same way in person. I absolutely would use the mechanics of the game as it stands. I absolutely would have pombers and dirty players.
Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-05-14 22:08:09
Oh, and if you hate the brutal teams...
...DON'T ENTER A MAJOR.
...DON'T ENTER A MAJOR.
Posted by Nelphine on 2013-05-15 01:27:34
wait so
Chainsaw shouldn't have entered the major because there are coaches in it who are willing to whine as a tactic?
That certainly would have made this less dramatic..
And yes, I feel whining is just as valid as destruction. (Which means I don't think either of them is particularly good, but you take what you get when you play on the internet.)
Chainsaw shouldn't have entered the major because there are coaches in it who are willing to whine as a tactic?
That certainly would have made this less dramatic..
And yes, I feel whining is just as valid as destruction. (Which means I don't think either of them is particularly good, but you take what you get when you play on the internet.)
Posted by oryx on 2013-05-15 05:00:03
Basically I stand where I am - if you can't handle the whining, don't play a team that inspires it. And if you po'd every turn and fouled instead of scoring in OT in real life, i daresay you wouldn't have people to play with very long...
Posted by licker on 2013-05-15 21:32:32
Yah...
Chainsaw appears oblivious to the hypocrisy of his stance.
If you don't like something don't play...
Umm...
Chainsaw doesn't like whining?
I think most people are in agreement at this point that neither Chainsaw nor onyx have done themselves any favors with their actual actions in that game, nor with their attempts to justify them.
Oh well. Hey everybody! Look! It's the IntErneTzzzz!!!!
Chainsaw appears oblivious to the hypocrisy of his stance.
If you don't like something don't play...
Umm...
Chainsaw doesn't like whining?
I think most people are in agreement at this point that neither Chainsaw nor onyx have done themselves any favors with their actual actions in that game, nor with their attempts to justify them.
Oh well. Hey everybody! Look! It's the IntErneTzzzz!!!!
Posted by easilyamused on 2013-05-16 13:30:18
2 things really stand out for me here.
First Oryx - "I wouldn't whine in person" So why do it online?
Then the revelation from Licker - "Oh well. Hey everybody! Look! It's the IntErneTzzzz!!!!" Pretty much spot on there, people are protected hidden behind their monitors so can act in whatever way they feel. Shame that some people choose to act like fools and ruin the game for others. Socail games FTW.
First Oryx - "I wouldn't whine in person" So why do it online?
Then the revelation from Licker - "Oh well. Hey everybody! Look! It's the IntErneTzzzz!!!!" Pretty much spot on there, people are protected hidden behind their monitors so can act in whatever way they feel. Shame that some people choose to act like fools and ruin the game for others. Socail games FTW.
Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-05-17 01:27:01
@licker: what a moronic statement.
Basically you have to suffer fools because they insist on the game being played to a particular style, otherwise they act up!?!
No. It's not hypocrisy to say that is wrong. I'm playing within the rules, playing the game in question as it was designed.
Being deliberately unpleasant should not be condoned. And don't confuse 'sportsmanship' - which is highly subjective - with being [un]pleasant. There is a huge grey area with the naamas, fouls, cleared pitches; many spectators celebrate it. There's no grey area with whining like a tool. The fact that Oryx is proud of it bamboozles me. He hates an aspect of the rules so he thinks it is OK to act like a complete idiot? Unbelievable. Don't play the game then, or if you do control who you play - and don't enter a god damn MAJOR.
This whole episode is just beyond belief. I can't believe people are defending somebody acting like such a tool in a major tournament game just because he hates [c]pomb.
Basically you have to suffer fools because they insist on the game being played to a particular style, otherwise they act up!?!
No. It's not hypocrisy to say that is wrong. I'm playing within the rules, playing the game in question as it was designed.
Being deliberately unpleasant should not be condoned. And don't confuse 'sportsmanship' - which is highly subjective - with being [un]pleasant. There is a huge grey area with the naamas, fouls, cleared pitches; many spectators celebrate it. There's no grey area with whining like a tool. The fact that Oryx is proud of it bamboozles me. He hates an aspect of the rules so he thinks it is OK to act like a complete idiot? Unbelievable. Don't play the game then, or if you do control who you play - and don't enter a god damn MAJOR.
This whole episode is just beyond belief. I can't believe people are defending somebody acting like such a tool in a major tournament game just because he hates [c]pomb.
Posted by Nelphine on 2013-05-17 10:22:15
Let me get this straight.
It's ok to say 'I do something that you hate. You can't whine about it.'
AND it's ok to say 'You do something I hate. You're an idiot and wrong.'
You cannot say that the game was designed to allow humans to act as they see fit, incluing pitch clears when it has no effect on the game, or on the rest of the tournament, or potentially in the entire league (if the team you pitch clear never plays you, or never plays another person) AND say that the game was NOT designed to allow humans to act as they see fit, including whining.
You see whining as somehow not part of the design of a social game involving luck (really? you've NEVER egged someone on? never purposefully gloated? never purposefully tried to irritate your opponent? never simply got frustrated?), whereas Oryx sees complete destruction (as opposed to simply hurting until you can win) as somehow not part of the design of a game called blood bowl.
I don't condone Oryx one iota - but I simply cannot believe that you are ANY different than him, in this instance.
And if you believe that he should not have entered the major, should you not have taken steps to remove what you consider idiocy? You could have easily blocked out/ignored/physically concealed the whining, but instead you listened to it, because, for you (it seems to me), Chat is an important part of the game... just as, for Oryx (presumably, based on what he has said elseewhere, but only in my opinion) majors are an important part of the game.
For you to feel that you can somehow restrict Oryx' access to important parts of the game, while not admitting that you should probably do the same, seems hypocritical.
It's ok to say 'I do something that you hate. You can't whine about it.'
AND it's ok to say 'You do something I hate. You're an idiot and wrong.'
You cannot say that the game was designed to allow humans to act as they see fit, incluing pitch clears when it has no effect on the game, or on the rest of the tournament, or potentially in the entire league (if the team you pitch clear never plays you, or never plays another person) AND say that the game was NOT designed to allow humans to act as they see fit, including whining.
You see whining as somehow not part of the design of a social game involving luck (really? you've NEVER egged someone on? never purposefully gloated? never purposefully tried to irritate your opponent? never simply got frustrated?), whereas Oryx sees complete destruction (as opposed to simply hurting until you can win) as somehow not part of the design of a game called blood bowl.
I don't condone Oryx one iota - but I simply cannot believe that you are ANY different than him, in this instance.
And if you believe that he should not have entered the major, should you not have taken steps to remove what you consider idiocy? You could have easily blocked out/ignored/physically concealed the whining, but instead you listened to it, because, for you (it seems to me), Chat is an important part of the game... just as, for Oryx (presumably, based on what he has said elseewhere, but only in my opinion) majors are an important part of the game.
For you to feel that you can somehow restrict Oryx' access to important parts of the game, while not admitting that you should probably do the same, seems hypocritical.
Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-05-20 11:54:01
Nelphine, there's chat, there's whining (which most of us do to a degree) then there's another level where if it were anything other than a game, you'd turn it off. Oryx was another level up from that.
Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-05-20 11:55:26
Btw Nelphine, I appreciate the reasonable responses.