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2011-11-08 09:40:10
rating 4.6
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2011-10-14 13:28:49
25 votes, rating 5.3
25 votes, rating 5.3
Slann: Big fun and big frustration
I've recently started playing slann for two reasons:
The overall reason is that whenever I played against them, both my opponent and myself had a lot of fun. They can either fail spectacularly or succeed spectacularly, but there's rarely a dull moment in a match featuring slann (unless they're cleared off the pitch).
What kept me back is that it seemed so hard. Low TV slann are a really bad team, and skilling them to a survivable level seemed like quite a challenge.
The second reason for going ahead with it, was seeing that it could be done (and done well). Fela's Hope[R] is a really cool team, and seeing it in action is what inspired me to build a slann team of my own. My plan was to keep hiring blitzers, knowing full welI that I would lose most of them before they become worth their TV (which Fela informs me is at 31 spp).
So far, that seems to be working. I've lost 4 blitzers (including 2 in one game, which I lost to goblins to boot). One had block, one died in the same game in which he skilled. The other two were at 0 and 4 spps.
I have 2 new ones, both still at 0spp after 1 and 3 matches. I was about to spp pass on a turn 8 when the riot made me score instead.
So: trying to build slann blitzers is frustrating and hella expensive, but playing slann is a blast, so it's not that bad, really. Lose more than I win, and have a lot of fun. In that sense they're not entirely unlike goblins, I guess; though with a bit more high TV potential.
The overall reason is that whenever I played against them, both my opponent and myself had a lot of fun. They can either fail spectacularly or succeed spectacularly, but there's rarely a dull moment in a match featuring slann (unless they're cleared off the pitch).
What kept me back is that it seemed so hard. Low TV slann are a really bad team, and skilling them to a survivable level seemed like quite a challenge.
The second reason for going ahead with it, was seeing that it could be done (and done well). Fela's Hope[R] is a really cool team, and seeing it in action is what inspired me to build a slann team of my own. My plan was to keep hiring blitzers, knowing full welI that I would lose most of them before they become worth their TV (which Fela informs me is at 31 spp).
So far, that seems to be working. I've lost 4 blitzers (including 2 in one game, which I lost to goblins to boot). One had block, one died in the same game in which he skilled. The other two were at 0 and 4 spps.
I have 2 new ones, both still at 0spp after 1 and 3 matches. I was about to spp pass on a turn 8 when the riot made me score instead.
So: trying to build slann blitzers is frustrating and hella expensive, but playing slann is a blast, so it's not that bad, really. Lose more than I win, and have a lot of fun. In that sense they're not entirely unlike goblins, I guess; though with a bit more high TV potential.
Comments
Posted by Emeric on 2011-10-14 14:13:55
I fully agree.
I've a recent slann team in Box too (http://www.fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=670716) and... got a decent start, skilled really good catchers, and then when I started hiring blitzers that made the TV high enough for being blasted from everywhere.
But, even when that does not work well, the team is fun to play (well, a bit less since my two wrestle/strip ball linefrogs died. defending is muuuuch more difficult despite the guard catchers).
I've a recent slann team in Box too (http://www.fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=670716) and... got a decent start, skilled really good catchers, and then when I started hiring blitzers that made the TV high enough for being blasted from everywhere.
But, even when that does not work well, the team is fun to play (well, a bit less since my two wrestle/strip ball linefrogs died. defending is muuuuch more difficult despite the guard catchers).
Posted by Fela on 2011-10-14 15:05:59
Yeah, tell me about frustration.
None of my teams had such bad chains of back-to-back dicings as the Frogs, made even more frustrating by the simple fact that they are almost certain to win unless diced. Currently again 8 matches in a row and counting.
I have NO idea why i did not retire them yet, it's not like i tend to hang on to teams ;).
None of my teams had such bad chains of back-to-back dicings as the Frogs, made even more frustrating by the simple fact that they are almost certain to win unless diced. Currently again 8 matches in a row and counting.
I have NO idea why i did not retire them yet, it's not like i tend to hang on to teams ;).
Posted by the_Sage on 2011-10-14 15:27:27
On a related note, Splotch just rolled doubles for his 5th skill!
this makes him my first non-delf superstar, with AG5, blodge, NoS and pass.
Fela, maybe because they're a lot of fun to play? A nice change of pace from your gurgly nurglies? Regardless, I think it's funny how your slann resemble your Nurgle, while my slann resemble my delves. =D
this makes him my first non-delf superstar, with AG5, blodge, NoS and pass.
Fela, maybe because they're a lot of fun to play? A nice change of pace from your gurgly nurglies? Regardless, I think it's funny how your slann resemble your Nurgle, while my slann resemble my delves. =D
Posted by uuni on 2011-10-14 16:24:22
By the way, do you think that early star palyers would change the survivalitity, if different strategies would be allowed?
For example Slibli costs currently 250k. 11 Linefrogs would cost you 660k and two rerolls 100k, totalling 760k. This would mean that you could induce Slibli if your opponent would cost at least 1010k.
Would these sorts of things have real effect on early Slann strategies or not, what do you think?
For example Slibli costs currently 250k. 11 Linefrogs would cost you 660k and two rerolls 100k, totalling 760k. This would mean that you could induce Slibli if your opponent would cost at least 1010k.
Would these sorts of things have real effect on early Slann strategies or not, what do you think?
Posted by Sigmar1 on 2011-10-14 16:46:34
I have three Slann teams (R, L, B) and all suffer similar difficulties as the_Sage described. My L team is the first to skill a blitzer to Veteran and they've had much fewer games than my Box team, which simply cannot keep one alive.
But they are a blast. While we were in Beta I had a Slann team go on an 11 game win streak. I've found for the Slann to be really effective you need some +ag statups and of course a few guards. Preferably on the same player! Its awesome what an ag4 strib ball, wrestle lino can do in conjunction with an ag5 dodge surehands catcher.
On the other hand they can be frustrating. Sucks to always seem to have a shot at the ball every turn and yet fail so often. Although their skillset would tend to a VERY aggressive defense I've been toying around with trying a more 'elf' style defense of preventing hits and slowing the cage to see if I can reduce the teams attrition rate.
But they are a blast. While we were in Beta I had a Slann team go on an 11 game win streak. I've found for the Slann to be really effective you need some +ag statups and of course a few guards. Preferably on the same player! Its awesome what an ag4 strib ball, wrestle lino can do in conjunction with an ag5 dodge surehands catcher.
On the other hand they can be frustrating. Sucks to always seem to have a shot at the ball every turn and yet fail so often. Although their skillset would tend to a VERY aggressive defense I've been toying around with trying a more 'elf' style defense of preventing hits and slowing the cage to see if I can reduce the teams attrition rate.
Posted by Gary_Gygax on 2011-10-14 17:24:20
I totally agree!
Slanns are SOOOOO funny to play, but so frustrating sometimes.
Anyway, still one of my all-time fav race!
Slanns are SOOOOO funny to play, but so frustrating sometimes.
Anyway, still one of my all-time fav race!
Posted by the_Sage on 2011-10-14 17:46:31
@Sigmar, I agree that a +AG lino would make the perfect strip baller. So far, my only +AG fell on a catcher though, so I haven't been able to do any 2+ strip balling. Should be next up though, adding strip ball to my wrestle dauntless catcher.
Posted by Craftnburn on 2011-10-14 18:43:17
I'm beginning to think the biggest problem with slann is the St 2 Catchers!... My (L) team:( http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=655381 ) is doing much better than my (B) team: ( http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=641849 ), but then again.. it's (L) vs (B) so kind of apples and oranges... Still I enjoy Slann tremendously and two +AG (1 with +ST as well!) Lino's should be hella fun while they last!
Posted by happygrue on 2011-10-15 06:37:32
I'll weigh in since Slann are hands down my favorite race and the race I've played more than any other. I've developed a rather strong opinion about how to start the teams out. Here's what I suggest as a starting roster:
1 Krox
2 Blitzers
8 Line
3 RR
total: 990K
Tie up two players with the krox, mark the his players, get the blitzers in near the ball. and try to get some crowd pushes by driving them around the sides. Always setup like you are going to get a blitz. It happens 1/12 of the time and it often means you often get a chance at scoring from it assuming you have kick and have kicked it shallow. I also tend to kick to my opponent even if I win the toss, largely because I can often stop them from scoring or force a turnover myself if I start will all 11 players. If you are trying to play defense in the second half with 8 players then you are going to have a much harder time stopping the run.
In general, putting two blitzers next to the ball and tying up the rest of your opponent's players is an excellent strategy. As a rookie team your opponent isn't likely to have much in the way of skills either, so you can make them burn rerolls by just standing around in such a way that they can't get past you without lots of blocks, and those blocks often have to be one die blocks or they have to dodge a player away from somewhere. The key is that YOU are not the one doing the leaping and dodging. The best games I've played are the games where I don't need to leap a handful of times or not at all.
Here is my most developed Slann team:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=642147
I just got my first catcher before my last game. Why not get catchers early? Because the str 2 and AV 7 means they just get crushed in the early games if you are focusing on going after the ball. Plus, they skill up fast but the blitzers don't, especially if you are running the ball with catchers. So play with the blitzers for a while, get 3-4 and then get some catchers once the blitzers are in good shape (blodge guard or blodge SS is fantastic, block tackle SS is great too).
Just my two cents of course! I agree with everyone above that they are amazingly fun to play.
1 Krox
2 Blitzers
8 Line
3 RR
total: 990K
Tie up two players with the krox, mark the his players, get the blitzers in near the ball. and try to get some crowd pushes by driving them around the sides. Always setup like you are going to get a blitz. It happens 1/12 of the time and it often means you often get a chance at scoring from it assuming you have kick and have kicked it shallow. I also tend to kick to my opponent even if I win the toss, largely because I can often stop them from scoring or force a turnover myself if I start will all 11 players. If you are trying to play defense in the second half with 8 players then you are going to have a much harder time stopping the run.
In general, putting two blitzers next to the ball and tying up the rest of your opponent's players is an excellent strategy. As a rookie team your opponent isn't likely to have much in the way of skills either, so you can make them burn rerolls by just standing around in such a way that they can't get past you without lots of blocks, and those blocks often have to be one die blocks or they have to dodge a player away from somewhere. The key is that YOU are not the one doing the leaping and dodging. The best games I've played are the games where I don't need to leap a handful of times or not at all.
Here is my most developed Slann team:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=642147
I just got my first catcher before my last game. Why not get catchers early? Because the str 2 and AV 7 means they just get crushed in the early games if you are focusing on going after the ball. Plus, they skill up fast but the blitzers don't, especially if you are running the ball with catchers. So play with the blitzers for a while, get 3-4 and then get some catchers once the blitzers are in good shape (blodge guard or blodge SS is fantastic, block tackle SS is great too).
Just my two cents of course! I agree with everyone above that they are amazingly fun to play.
Posted by the_Sage on 2011-10-15 09:15:07
Skilling up the catchers too quickly is definitely an issue (that I did not sufficiently consider). I like your suggestion, skilling up the blitzers at low TV. If I make another slann team, that's what I'll try to do.
I suspect the team will be more overpriced than one without blitzers, and headed for some early fail. Then again, early fail is less lethal due to lack of mighty blow, and AV8 should handle it better as well. Going this route should make for much more balanced skilling up in the long run. It also has much better odds of giving you a +AG ST3 guy.
I suspect the team will be more overpriced than one without blitzers, and headed for some early fail. Then again, early fail is less lethal due to lack of mighty blow, and AV8 should handle it better as well. Going this route should make for much more balanced skilling up in the long run. It also has much better odds of giving you a +AG ST3 guy.
Posted by Garion on 2011-10-15 09:41:59
I've played a few games with them and i still really don't get the Blitzers. They are such a huge TV increase but what do they bring? maybe once they have blodge side step and gaurd, but thats a long way off.
For me krox 4 catchers rest linemen is the way to go really. Has anyone actually found the blitzers to be of much use yet?
For me krox 4 catchers rest linemen is the way to go really. Has anyone actually found the blitzers to be of much use yet?
Posted by the_Sage on 2011-10-15 11:25:24
I suspect that blitzers become OK at 16, and good at 31 spps.
I'm guessing Fela and happygrue are pretty pleased with theirs, though I too run a catcher-focused show.
I'm guessing Fela and happygrue are pretty pleased with theirs, though I too run a catcher-focused show.
Posted by Fela on 2011-10-15 13:11:15
The blitzers are my main reason to play Slann. IMO they are vastly underrated, because they are all about skill access, mobility and denying said mobility to your opponent's key players.
Posted by Ullakkomorko on 2011-10-15 13:50:55
I've never had more than two blitzers on a slann team at a time. That comes from starting with the 2 blitzer, 2 catcher, 4 rerolls roster. But from the experience of playing against 4 blitzers I must say that there's some sort of weird synergy thing there. Lots of Diving Tackle and Jump Up creates issues for the opponent. It denies space and that's good on both offence and defence. But lots of blitzers is a risky strategy because they're so costly and pretty fragile too without any skills.
Slann also thrive when they have superior numbers on the pitch and killer blitzers are the only way to achieve that. Build one blitzer with Block, MB and Piling On and blitz with him every single turn when not making a play on the ball.
Uuni, I don't think Slibli adds anything much to a rookie slann team expect someone to put on the los. With lizardmen I think Slibli is different because of the synergy of having lots of ST4 players.
Slann also thrive when they have superior numbers on the pitch and killer blitzers are the only way to achieve that. Build one blitzer with Block, MB and Piling On and blitz with him every single turn when not making a play on the ball.
Uuni, I don't think Slibli adds anything much to a rookie slann team expect someone to put on the los. With lizardmen I think Slibli is different because of the synergy of having lots of ST4 players.
Posted by happygrue on 2011-10-15 15:17:40
My first BB team ever was my tabletop Slann that started out like Ullakkomorko did and I liked that a lot but when the catchers skill up and then die or miss games then you end up playing hard, hard matchups with an underskilled team (which is going to lead to more losses of both games and players) - IMHO.
I agree with Fela: the skill access on the blitzers is incredible. Just as a counter argument to the price of the blitzers, consider than you can build one into:
Block, Dodge, SS, Guard (with DT/JU for 190K and without any doubles).
Compare that to a DElf blitzer, the same player would cost 210K and require doubles (this is trading the leap/VLL for agi 4, which is whitewashing a bit but still), and you couldn't even get that player with most races other than elves unless you roll insane doubles.
Or think about a Slann blitzer with Block, MB, PO (DT/JU for 170K no doubles), elf blitzers arn't going to be able to pull that off much of the time.
Consider an Orc blitzer with +MV, MB, PO, Jump Up. That costs 180K and requires both +Move and doubles. And that's not even considering DT and Leap!
My point is that you can build your Slann blitzers into super players that do things that other races can only dream about. Yes they are expensive and they take finesse at low TV, but if you are smart then the DT/JU combo can work wonders on defense and you win or tie your early games by stopping the run and scoring once or twice if you can force a turnover.
I agree with Fela: the skill access on the blitzers is incredible. Just as a counter argument to the price of the blitzers, consider than you can build one into:
Block, Dodge, SS, Guard (with DT/JU for 190K and without any doubles).
Compare that to a DElf blitzer, the same player would cost 210K and require doubles (this is trading the leap/VLL for agi 4, which is whitewashing a bit but still), and you couldn't even get that player with most races other than elves unless you roll insane doubles.
Or think about a Slann blitzer with Block, MB, PO (DT/JU for 170K no doubles), elf blitzers arn't going to be able to pull that off much of the time.
Consider an Orc blitzer with +MV, MB, PO, Jump Up. That costs 180K and requires both +Move and doubles. And that's not even considering DT and Leap!
My point is that you can build your Slann blitzers into super players that do things that other races can only dream about. Yes they are expensive and they take finesse at low TV, but if you are smart then the DT/JU combo can work wonders on defense and you win or tie your early games by stopping the run and scoring once or twice if you can force a turnover.
Posted by the_Sage on 2011-11-02 08:24:38
So far I'm forced to agree with happygrue. I tried his starting roster and built myself a blitzer-focused team:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=672125
Its 8/4/6 record is testament to its superiority over the 8/3/15 catcher-focused one:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=671141
Recently realized I should of course have taken stand firm instead of sidestep.
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=672125
Its 8/4/6 record is testament to its superiority over the 8/3/15 catcher-focused one:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=671141
Recently realized I should of course have taken stand firm instead of sidestep.