Posted by blader4411 on 2011-10-21 22:17:04

I play both elves and ClawPOMBers, and out of the two Elves win a LOT more.

If some coaches can't rationalize it, oh well. Not like he has to face ClawPOMB outside of the Blackbox.

-Blader

Posted by PurpleChest on 2011-10-21 22:56:29

this is pretty much exactly the point. the psychological impact of the CRP changes.

Posted by Synn on 2011-10-21 23:24:44

They created something only available to a handful of teams that has no natural counter.

At least back in LRB 4, unless a dead ref was involved... you could always not foul back. Alternatively, everyone had access to DP and fouling was the absolute most efficient way to get rid of a player (including claw/rsc).

__Synn

Posted by Overhamsteren on 2011-10-21 23:41:40

So box game or not?

Posted by Severedunit on 2011-10-22 01:32:41

Not really on point but Elvish AV7 only counters the Claw. PO and MB still do the damage.

Posted by Qaz on 2011-10-22 02:27:40

The irritating thing about PO is that while you increase your damage out put you increase your chance of survival with that particular player as the opponent cant block him and with the way the new fouling works you can just laugh as they get send off trying to take your player out. PO is like a win win move I kill and I dont get killed.

And while there is talk of fend you need your whole team to have it wheres as you just need that legend pomber with jugger and tackle and his 440TVs worth of 11 fend and dodge is useless.

While the BBRC talked about increasing the on pitch violence I never got why they then nerfed fouling.

I for one saw viable counters to LRB4 fouling with skillful placement wheres I dont see a real good counter to a pomber

Posted by Severedunit on 2011-10-22 05:56:23

In effect your using MB twice. If you don't like the first roll, use MB again with PO. It might not be quite so bad if when using PO you lost the +1 from MB because you'd "used" it already.

Posted by Beerox on 2011-10-22 07:48:20

When I get into streetfights, I will often punch or kick my opponent and then stop to observe his/her status (most times they are unconscious). If unsatisfied with their state, I will "pile on" via a flying elbow drop. However sometimes that will cause them to awaken from their unconscious state, and be merely stunned. It's a strange world.

Posted by KingKlutz on 2011-10-22 10:29:42

I played Undead v Undead in Blackbox recently vs two Star POMB Wights. One of them POMB'd my Mummy to -Str, so I took revenge by fouling the Star Wight with a Rookie Zomb the next turn. Killed it.

I would just like to see PO be an action that a player can be sent off for. In reality it is exactly like a foul.

Posted by Aflo on 2011-10-22 12:22:14

Beerox' comment made me chuckle :)

Posted by Colin on 2011-10-22 16:35:57

The consequences of the new PO stacking with other kill skills is well documented, so I won't repeat them. Thus far the effects have mostly been confined to the Blackbox; the environment there is such that I've turned to League for my kicks - I have wondered if the Box will devour itself. It'll be interesting to see how the FUMBBL Cup will be affected.

I've mused over fixes for it - there's the FUMBBL house rule version, sending off, and one I've advocated - replacing the 2D6 Injury roll with a D12 - it helps to even out the affect of modifiers on Injury rolls, while leaving the unmodified odds unaffected: http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=458972#458972

As for the depression - I'd say playing a Stunty team is the tonic!

Posted by Aflo on 2011-10-22 16:54:01

Now just to keep crossing fingers and toes for ball and chain, bombadier and hail mary...

Posted by Catalyst32 on 2011-10-22 18:13:55

RoShamBo has been used by people for centuries precisely because the game is perfectly balanced. The BBRC ignored balance entirely with the rules on CLPOMB especially considering the nerf to fouling the CLPOMB monster while it is on the ground. The only skill counters to CLPOMB Dodge and Fend each have a counter skill that any CLPOMB monster would be able to access with Tackle and Juggernaut.

What are the counters to Claw? Have terrible AV in the first place? Really? So... to counter Claws ability to lower your AV to 7 the only counter is to have AV of 7 (or worse) in the first place. Yeah. That'll show them.

Posted by Ullakkomorko on 2011-10-22 18:52:57

The days are getting shorter. I agree with Painstate. There really does seem to be a surplus of depressed coaches (see below).

Posted by mymLaban on 2011-10-22 22:10:43

Same as allways people whining when thier elf balling pixels dies, it was exactly the same years ago bac lkthen it was just people crying over how OP DP was sheesh get over it

Posted by MrNomad on 2011-10-22 22:39:23

I would say the difference between ClawPOMB and LRB4 DP is that everyone had access to DP while ClawPOMB is limited to a few races. So comparing the two is not exactly apples to apples. Further more once you used DP in LRB4 you had the eye on you which increased your chances of the DP being removed. So really not a valid argument.

Posted by Marcellus on 2011-10-23 00:59:13

well written and well said painstate. I have seen the same thing myself quite a few times.

Posted by koadah on 2011-10-23 07:23:56

Are there really so many ClawPOMBers in [R]?

If there are, how do they get games?

How do they beat the pimped up elf ballers?

Are you all expecting RandomOracle to stroll to an easy Fumbbl Cup win?

So Jimmy won the CoS. But no chaos, nurgle or pact teams made the last 8 of the Black Cup. Only one CD team made it. One orc and two dwarf teams made it and a lot of elves.

There are a lot of killers in the box because people like killing. Box is still doing better than almost any time since Cyanide launched. For all the moaning it seems that a lot of people like it.

Those that don't can still play Ranked or they can sign up for a season of House Rules. ;)

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=group&op=view&group=7542

Posted by pythrr on 2011-10-23 08:07:07

PFFT LAMMER DICES ONLY FOR CKLAWPOMBMBERS~

Posted by Catalyst32 on 2011-10-23 09:13:47

Claw affects the entire community worldwide. To act like it only exists in the Box is ridiculous. The games NOT PLAYED due to a broken skill combo hurts the whole community.

The argument that Elves are still good despite Claw is a stupid argument too. It ignores 16 or 24 rosters that have no access to Claw and no access to mass ag4 and AG skills.

Having high AV is no longer useful, cheap line fodder not useful... if you don't have access to a CLPOMB monster or team full of Elves you will need Nuffle on your side or Idiots as opponents to be very successful.

Posted by dode74 on 2011-10-23 11:26:14

Are CPOMBers particularly successful? Sure, there is the odd team with very good coaches (Chuck vs BB), but if it were that good then it would show up in the stats, particularly as those teams winning far more than they should. Does it?

Posted by MadTias on 2011-10-23 11:47:31

Spot on, PainState.

Games featuring CRP ClawPOMB become one-dimensional because they're all about the CLawPOMB. Will they get good or bad CAS dice? That will to a large degree decide the outcome of the game. Positioning? Not so much. ClawPOMB reduces some games to the CAS dice in the first turns. I enjoy the tactical aspect of the game so this makes me depressed. Such a game won't be very much fun for me, no matter who wins.

There will always be one skill/combo that is the most efficient at removing opposing players and people will always whine about that one. Used to be DP and now it's ClawPOMB. So far nothing has changed.

But I was never depressed about LRB4 DP in the way that I'm depressed about ClawPOMB. That's because there's a vital difference: LRB4 DP required positioning to use well. There's a drawback to the gangfoul in that it can put a lot of players out of position. CRP ClawPOMB doesn't require anything - it's just point-and-click. Being prone is mostly a bonus in a ClawPOMB world. Again, because I enjoy the tactical aspect this makes me depressed.

Posted by koadah on 2011-10-23 13:16:30

@Catalyst

Apart from a handful of crackpots at Cyanide I don't hear much moaning apart from a Fumbbl.

And I was asking how many of these C-POMBers you were actually coming across outside the Box.

As for lost games, we're actually doing MORE games than we were doing under LRB4. We still have an LRB4 division. People whine and whine but no one actually uses it


http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=stats&op=games&type=month

so you need C-POMB to be successful? Where are all the C-POMB tournament winners? We have Jimmy but who else? How many smacks & minors do they win? They can't even dominate Box tournaments Orcs, dwarves, skaven and even slann seem to do better.

The only thing that they dominate is the Sprint which is biased in their favour due to minimum TV requirement.

@MadTias fair point but again how many C-POMBers do you come across in Ranked? Box is full of bashers. Of cause it is. So was the LRB4 Box and they killed it. If the rules are so bad how is it that the CRP Box is still alive and well?

It seems to me that there are so many bashers in the box because people like bashing. If you want to play a cerebral chess game can't you do that in Ranked?

Is this just another R vs B, we want a scheduler argument? ;)

Posted by shadow46x2 on 2011-10-23 13:33:12

not really sure where you get your data stating that we're playing more games now than we were under LRB4...

because it's factually inaccurate....

Posted by dode74 on 2011-10-23 13:56:37

API downloads from 00:01 20 Jan 10 to 23:59 30 Sep 10 shows matchIDs 2920088 to 3073223 played, suggesting 153135 games. However, these matches only use 81297 rows.

API downloads from 00:01 20 Jan 11 to 23:59 30 Sep 11 shows matchIDs 3111708 to 3205841 played, suggesting 94133 games. However, these matches only use 91663 rows.

Depending on what happened to the missing MatchIDs (70k of them in 2010?) will determine what we can say about play rates here. Of course, there are external influences as well (Cyanide).

Posted by koadah on 2011-10-23 14:40:29

Seriously Shadow. I got it from the graph that I linked in the post.

Posted by shadow46x2 on 2011-10-23 16:15:56

koadah: you mean the post that shows us hitting 22.5K matches played in june of 2009, and plummetting to half of that number since then?....

because that's what your graph shows....

so again...really not sure where you're getting your data that shows that we are playing more games now than we were under LRB4...because it's *STILL* factually inaccurate...

it's public knowledge that we lost a major bulk of games played since cyanide was released, and have yet to come anywhere near close to matching the pre-cyanide numbers....

your graph proves that....

unless, of course, you weren't comparing current games played numbers to LRB4 era games played numbers....in which case, feel free to clarify your position...because that's what your post is pointing at....which again..you know...that whole factually inaccurate thing...

Posted by koadah on 2011-10-23 16:44:28

Ah, so you do know where I got the data.

And I suppose "factually inaccurate" doesn't mean "wrong". ;)

Posted by PainState on 2011-10-23 17:59:11

The funny thing is coaches who say go play ranked to avoid the CLPOMB. That is true in the sense that you can play games and avoid them. BUT if you play in tournaments there is no way around them, just like Box. Also I used to say who is playing the chaose teams with CL/RSC in LRB4? Yet every major there would be 2 or 3 chaos teams with massive CL/RSC, remeber the Danish Terrors with 4 players with that skill?

My original point was that the level of depression has reached a point that coaches are considering no longer playing at all. It is much larger than DP in LRB4. It is like this large cloud that looms over all of us.

Even if you dont face CLPOMB teams some coaches feel like it destroys the entire concept of Blood Bowl and seem to be leaning to stop playing. That is bad when coaches who dont even lock horns with CLPOMB teams are considering retiring just because the idea of them.

LRB4 DP never reached such a critical mass that coaches would consider to play another game just because of that game mechanic.


The blog was simply me stating what I have scene going on whille specing a huge amount of matches. I just felt inclined to make a post about it. And yes the majority of these matches are Box matches. But this discussion is not just about Box, it is about the new rule set which effects every Div.


Of course Iam very interested to see how this plays out in the FC. My "gut" tells me that only 1 or 2 CLPOMB teams will make the final 8 and that the elfballers will rule the day. But for me that is the greatness of the FC, no more talk, lets play some Blood Bowl and see how it plays out.

Posted by shadow46x2 on 2011-10-23 19:29:19

i simply use "factually inaccurate" because you're not 100% clear on what direction you're going....

if you're saying that, currently, LRB6 gets more games than LRB4...then you'd be right...but not necessarily because of any ruleset...that's purely anecdotal...

if you're saying that LRB6 currently gets more games than LRB4 did when it was the main ruleset...2 years ago...

you'd be wrong...100% wrong...

so i'll save my declaration of right or wrong until you feel it necessary to actually clarify your stance...

Posted by koadah on 2011-10-23 19:33:51

If you're complaining about playing C-POMBers over and over and over again like high TV in the Box then I can understand what you are saying.

But if people are quitting over three or four teams in the Majors that probably won't win anyway then no I don't have much sympathy for them and probably won't miss them.

Posted by koadah on 2011-10-23 19:50:27

@shadow46x2 see that's why I posted a link to the graph. So people can see what it meant.

Posted by shadow46x2 on 2011-10-23 20:13:53

so then you're wrong...glad we could get that out of the way...

Posted by EmperorZombie on 2011-10-23 20:23:30

Big deal, go listen to some Cleveland Browns fans...that is FOR REAL! Grown adults depressed over a real football team. The callers on the DAILY talkshows are hilarious. Its like peopleofwalmart.com but for sports. I feel down, i listen to those losers then i feel better. Instant self esteem.

Posted by Aflo on 2011-10-23 22:40:14

For me it's the points that MadTias brought up...a dumbing down of the game in certain matchups where the result almost seems dependant on whether the opposition coach can mindlessly take half your team off the pitch.

It's the same issue that made gunlines in WHFB so dull to play against, reducing the game to 'will I have anything left to *do* anything after watching my opponent roll dice. No they were never especially effective, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the point.

Posted by Romanowski on 2011-12-06 23:55:53

Hmm just play elfs ???

that is not an argument that is just stupid talk, What if you wanted to play another team ??

Just get rid off claw thats the only way