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2015-11-20 01:03:50
26 votes, rating 2.3
26 votes, rating 2.3
No Go zones in Europe
Comments
Posted by koadah on 2015-11-20 01:56:40
Is there anywhere in the US where blacks might be afraid to go? Or whites?
Think carefully now.
Think carefully now.
Posted by licker on 2015-11-20 02:00:17
Not because of muslim terrorists no.
Posted by koadah on 2015-11-20 02:26:21
Any city could be hit by terrorists. Even Oklahoma city. That doesn't make an area no go.
Chances of getting shot in Europe vs chances of getting shot in US?
Black folks at least would probably rather take their chances with the terrorists. At least they don't hit you with resisting arrest if you survive.
Chances of getting shot in Europe vs chances of getting shot in US?
Black folks at least would probably rather take their chances with the terrorists. At least they don't hit you with resisting arrest if you survive.
Posted by licker on 2015-11-20 04:31:46
Know a lot of 'black folks' do you then?
Posted by Kryten on 2015-11-20 04:39:19
Oh joy. Fear and Fiction. Why post this on Fumbbl?
Posted by licker on 2015-11-20 04:47:17
I don't understand why anyone would deny that areas exist in Paris where the police are 'scared' to go. It's just a freaking fact.
I also don't understand why the existence of those areas would in any way be compared to areas in the US where police, or blacks, or whites would be afraid to go.
As though anyone would deny this either, but the salient point isn't that these areas exist, it's what the reason for the ones in Paris is, and why, after the horrific attacks there, it might matter.
So again, the terrorists who hit OKC didn't come from some place where police were afraid to go, and neither are 'black folk' committing horrendous acts of terrorism.
Koadah just seems to want to point a finger back at the US for some reason which doesn't seem to matter in the context of the article posted.
You want a discussion of the underlying issues, or at least fears with respect to immigrants, or indeed, existing population refusing to integrate into the society of the country they live in?
Or do you just want to yell 'yah but the US has problems too!'
Because the former could be interesting, the later is just stupid.
I also don't understand why the existence of those areas would in any way be compared to areas in the US where police, or blacks, or whites would be afraid to go.
As though anyone would deny this either, but the salient point isn't that these areas exist, it's what the reason for the ones in Paris is, and why, after the horrific attacks there, it might matter.
So again, the terrorists who hit OKC didn't come from some place where police were afraid to go, and neither are 'black folk' committing horrendous acts of terrorism.
Koadah just seems to want to point a finger back at the US for some reason which doesn't seem to matter in the context of the article posted.
You want a discussion of the underlying issues, or at least fears with respect to immigrants, or indeed, existing population refusing to integrate into the society of the country they live in?
Or do you just want to yell 'yah but the US has problems too!'
Because the former could be interesting, the later is just stupid.
Posted by gibby33 on 2015-11-20 05:00:18
I'm going to go with Kryten on this one.
Posted by coombz on 2015-11-20 05:24:21
fear and fiction = food for the feebleminded
gg
gg
Posted by RedPuma on 2015-11-20 06:02:22
My internet connection sucks at the moment, so I can't even open the article. But regardless of what it says in there I find licker's question really interesting:
'You want a discussion of the underlying issues, or at least fears with respect to immigrants, or indeed, existing population refusing to integrate into the society of the country they live in?'
Have you ever considered that to be integrated into a society, you need a society that is willing to integrate you into their society as a well respected member of it? Looking at the suburbs of Paris or Brussels I get the feeling that both countries are missing this willingness in a very large scale (especially on the level of politics; from what I know a large part of especially young French and Belgians are very welcoming to immigrants). Even in Germany (I am German), where 'Ghettos' like that are a much smaller problem, the willingness to integrate immigrants and refugees is at a bare minimum in many areas.
So here's my question: How do you think immigrants or refugees or outsiders of any kind should integrate into any established community, when said community is effectively blocking them out? And how surprising do you think it is that those outsiders are getting frustrated with their situation and hostile towards 'the others'?
I'm not saying that either one party is to blame for the problem; it's a downwards spiral where both parties are making mistakes, especially by not trying to get rid of the stereotypes they have about the respective others. So comments like the: 'they refuse to integrate' are - in my opinion - unreflected and not thought through bs. But hey, everybody is entitled to their own opinion. But perhaps you can read this as some food for thought...
(And please excuse any typos, I'm typing on my phone which makes longer comments like this a tad bit more difficult)
'You want a discussion of the underlying issues, or at least fears with respect to immigrants, or indeed, existing population refusing to integrate into the society of the country they live in?'
Have you ever considered that to be integrated into a society, you need a society that is willing to integrate you into their society as a well respected member of it? Looking at the suburbs of Paris or Brussels I get the feeling that both countries are missing this willingness in a very large scale (especially on the level of politics; from what I know a large part of especially young French and Belgians are very welcoming to immigrants). Even in Germany (I am German), where 'Ghettos' like that are a much smaller problem, the willingness to integrate immigrants and refugees is at a bare minimum in many areas.
So here's my question: How do you think immigrants or refugees or outsiders of any kind should integrate into any established community, when said community is effectively blocking them out? And how surprising do you think it is that those outsiders are getting frustrated with their situation and hostile towards 'the others'?
I'm not saying that either one party is to blame for the problem; it's a downwards spiral where both parties are making mistakes, especially by not trying to get rid of the stereotypes they have about the respective others. So comments like the: 'they refuse to integrate' are - in my opinion - unreflected and not thought through bs. But hey, everybody is entitled to their own opinion. But perhaps you can read this as some food for thought...
(And please excuse any typos, I'm typing on my phone which makes longer comments like this a tad bit more difficult)
Posted by Cloggy on 2015-11-20 07:28:25
I'd like to give two responses to this.
1: The failure of European governments to fully integrate immigrant populations into society is indeed the root cause of many of our social problems. The article places the blame too much with the immigrants and not enough with society/government as a whole, but the basic principle is correct.
People who are systematically discriminated against will in the end become hostile towards the system that they feel is robbing them of their dignity. That is a fundamental principle of how the human mind works and is equally valid for minority groups in all western nations, including the US. In our case they are the arab/muslim immigrants, where in the case of the US it's blacks and to a lesser extent hispanics.
Throw religion into that mix and it becomes every humanist's nightmare and the current reality.
2. The article itself is a sad example of what is wrong with the polarised media. TWO sentences in: "what the Obama-friendly media are happy to gloss over....." To hell with finding out what is really wrong and trying to find a consensus and a reasonable solution. It's all about US AND THEM! Anyone with a different viewpoint from ours is the ENEMY!
It's such a small step from this type of "journalism" (or should we call it propaganda and get it over with) to the "Kill the infidel" kind of propaganda that is used to recruit for ISIS and poison the minds of our minority youths.
Way to be part of the problem mister McCarthy.....
1: The failure of European governments to fully integrate immigrant populations into society is indeed the root cause of many of our social problems. The article places the blame too much with the immigrants and not enough with society/government as a whole, but the basic principle is correct.
People who are systematically discriminated against will in the end become hostile towards the system that they feel is robbing them of their dignity. That is a fundamental principle of how the human mind works and is equally valid for minority groups in all western nations, including the US. In our case they are the arab/muslim immigrants, where in the case of the US it's blacks and to a lesser extent hispanics.
Throw religion into that mix and it becomes every humanist's nightmare and the current reality.
2. The article itself is a sad example of what is wrong with the polarised media. TWO sentences in: "what the Obama-friendly media are happy to gloss over....." To hell with finding out what is really wrong and trying to find a consensus and a reasonable solution. It's all about US AND THEM! Anyone with a different viewpoint from ours is the ENEMY!
It's such a small step from this type of "journalism" (or should we call it propaganda and get it over with) to the "Kill the infidel" kind of propaganda that is used to recruit for ISIS and poison the minds of our minority youths.
Way to be part of the problem mister McCarthy.....
Posted by thoralf on 2015-11-20 07:32:28
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Review
Posted by Patator on 2015-11-20 08:00:30
Ah come on don't do this, please.
So i'm french. I'm studying history and geography. I'm specialised in studying organized crime and urban politics. This to say that i know what i'm talking of. That doesnt mean you must absolutely agree with me, just that i'm not mading this up.
If you TL; DR me on this well.. don't go talking politics if you can't read more than 10 sentences. And you must have read all the linked "journalism" work, so you cn read this, don't you ? If the problem is my english or if you want to read someone who actually knows what he is talking about, read [url=http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2015/november/14/paris-you-don-t-want-to-read-this/]this piece of cleverness.[/url]
1 / about paris no-zone. As in a lot of big cities today Paris has his poor zones. It's called "spatial segregation"and it has many explenations and none of those is about islamism or terrorisme. Poverty comes first, communautarisme second (and by the way it works with richess too, that's why we try to mix it up but it's not enough).
In those areas there are weapons and crimes. The population has strictly no faith in the system and the society and especially not in the cops. It is the case in St Denis since the 80's. Do you think it was already radical islamism at that time ?
But that kind of area is full of discontent people. Discontent people make a good basis for anyone with subversives ideas. Since it already had a big worker population St-Denis was a center of what we call the "red-belt", a number of Paris suburbs where mayors were communists SINCE THE 1920. Do you think it was islam then ? No, but still at that time communists had one goal only : armed revolution and a sovietic state. (actually it's more complicated but that's nto the point of this discussion).
Now communism is dead, altermondialism is not a very combat oriented opposition and angry people turn to other ideas in those area. Radical islamism is one of those. Radical nationalism another, as our next elections will surely show. This last one progress far more than the first.
So yes those terrorists came from our country. THEY WHERE NOT REFUGIEES. So of course they have hideouts and network in our cities. And where do you think they can hide the best ? In the upper class part of the city ? No they hide where people (for good or bad reasons, that ain't even the point here) don't like cops. Will anyone remotly clever / knowing what he says tell me that city area where cops don't go are the result of islamism ? I don't think so. But it's a good place to hide and act and convert, that is sadly true. And we wont be able to counter this without investing those area with other thing than violence and discrimination.
And anyway it is still far less violence than a lot of other suburbs (actualy I'm not even sure it's the worst place in Paris, nore in France).
2/ And even more important : this kind of reaction is exactly what those terrorists where after. They want France to radicalize against islam (and not just radical islamism, just all islam) so islamic populaitons are even more prone to at least tolerate them. And for the moment it worked wonder, helas. Our President extended l' "etat d'urgence", a state of exeption for 3 months and already use it to other purpose as forbidding ecologists protests. People have starting shooting black people in Lille, just because they are fucking black (or arabs for what it matters. Do you know that the biggest islamic countries are Pakistan, India, Bengladesh and Indonesia ?).
So please, don't give them what they want. Or don't go "Je suis Paris" ever again.
So i'm french. I'm studying history and geography. I'm specialised in studying organized crime and urban politics. This to say that i know what i'm talking of. That doesnt mean you must absolutely agree with me, just that i'm not mading this up.
If you TL; DR me on this well.. don't go talking politics if you can't read more than 10 sentences. And you must have read all the linked "journalism" work, so you cn read this, don't you ? If the problem is my english or if you want to read someone who actually knows what he is talking about, read [url=http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2015/november/14/paris-you-don-t-want-to-read-this/]this piece of cleverness.[/url]
1 / about paris no-zone. As in a lot of big cities today Paris has his poor zones. It's called "spatial segregation"and it has many explenations and none of those is about islamism or terrorisme. Poverty comes first, communautarisme second (and by the way it works with richess too, that's why we try to mix it up but it's not enough).
In those areas there are weapons and crimes. The population has strictly no faith in the system and the society and especially not in the cops. It is the case in St Denis since the 80's. Do you think it was already radical islamism at that time ?
But that kind of area is full of discontent people. Discontent people make a good basis for anyone with subversives ideas. Since it already had a big worker population St-Denis was a center of what we call the "red-belt", a number of Paris suburbs where mayors were communists SINCE THE 1920. Do you think it was islam then ? No, but still at that time communists had one goal only : armed revolution and a sovietic state. (actually it's more complicated but that's nto the point of this discussion).
Now communism is dead, altermondialism is not a very combat oriented opposition and angry people turn to other ideas in those area. Radical islamism is one of those. Radical nationalism another, as our next elections will surely show. This last one progress far more than the first.
So yes those terrorists came from our country. THEY WHERE NOT REFUGIEES. So of course they have hideouts and network in our cities. And where do you think they can hide the best ? In the upper class part of the city ? No they hide where people (for good or bad reasons, that ain't even the point here) don't like cops. Will anyone remotly clever / knowing what he says tell me that city area where cops don't go are the result of islamism ? I don't think so. But it's a good place to hide and act and convert, that is sadly true. And we wont be able to counter this without investing those area with other thing than violence and discrimination.
And anyway it is still far less violence than a lot of other suburbs (actualy I'm not even sure it's the worst place in Paris, nore in France).
2/ And even more important : this kind of reaction is exactly what those terrorists where after. They want France to radicalize against islam (and not just radical islamism, just all islam) so islamic populaitons are even more prone to at least tolerate them. And for the moment it worked wonder, helas. Our President extended l' "etat d'urgence", a state of exeption for 3 months and already use it to other purpose as forbidding ecologists protests. People have starting shooting black people in Lille, just because they are fucking black (or arabs for what it matters. Do you know that the biggest islamic countries are Pakistan, India, Bengladesh and Indonesia ?).
So please, don't give them what they want. Or don't go "Je suis Paris" ever again.
Posted by vaclav on 2015-11-20 08:06:17
We here dont have blackies, but if you are homosexual or American (white one). There are some chances u will get beaten at night on the street. Also, blacke people from western countreys are not considered to have imperiaslist intensions. Beside that, there are no gangs, robbers or such like in western countreys. We have proper well organiesed criminal here.
Posted by koadah on 2015-11-20 08:43:28
Yes licker I know a lot of 'black folks' muslim and non muslim.
'scared to go' does not equal 'no-go'. I would be very surprised if there are no areas in the US where it could 'kick off' if the police go in in a heavy handed manner. I hear that it has done fairly recently.
That is not about religion or terrorism. That is about angry kids with no jobs and few prospects.
The two men who killed Lee Rigby were both raised as Christians. If they hadn't found fanatical islam they would probably have joined the NBPP or some other group of nutters.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0
As for integration, my kids are considering changing their names to avoid being mistaken for muslims or 'foreigners'. It won't work as well as it does for white people but it does make a difference.
I raised the US because it was an American who posted a link to a US conservative site. These claims have already been raised and been found to be misleading.
'scared to go' does not equal 'no-go'. I would be very surprised if there are no areas in the US where it could 'kick off' if the police go in in a heavy handed manner. I hear that it has done fairly recently.
That is not about religion or terrorism. That is about angry kids with no jobs and few prospects.
The two men who killed Lee Rigby were both raised as Christians. If they hadn't found fanatical islam they would probably have joined the NBPP or some other group of nutters.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0
As for integration, my kids are considering changing their names to avoid being mistaken for muslims or 'foreigners'. It won't work as well as it does for white people but it does make a difference.
I raised the US because it was an American who posted a link to a US conservative site. These claims have already been raised and been found to be misleading.
Posted by Rawlf on 2015-11-20 08:52:44
Looking forward to more BB fluff from PainState!
Posted by Kam on 2015-11-20 12:57:46
Too long, Mr Patate, too long. People won't read it. That couldn't fit between two adverts for Geico.
Posted by thoralf on 2015-11-20 20:05:18
The TL;DR is easy, dear Kam: USA's not Europe, and Obama bashing is silly.
You still have 45 characters to make a full tweet out of this.
Since we're at it, perhaps Painstate would like to comment on the reactions of the conservative states regarding Syrians on the light that the family of Anne Frank sought (and was denied) refugee status in the United States:
http://www.snopes.com/anne-frank-refugee/
You still have 45 characters to make a full tweet out of this.
Since we're at it, perhaps Painstate would like to comment on the reactions of the conservative states regarding Syrians on the light that the family of Anne Frank sought (and was denied) refugee status in the United States:
http://www.snopes.com/anne-frank-refugee/
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-11-20 20:26:49
So to my friends in Europe, I would like to know your opinions on the current US president, from your perspective.
We all have ours, obviously, but I wonder what each of you think about him.
We all have ours, obviously, but I wonder what each of you think about him.
Posted by koadah on 2015-11-20 20:33:07
Rather him than Trump.
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-11-20 21:23:15
How about Hillary & why?
Posted by Patator on 2015-11-20 22:56:36
We french will take anyone that accept to import roquefort ^^
Posted by thoralf on 2015-11-20 23:48:39
Seems that the list of the attackers contains no Syrian refugee:
http://www.ibtimes.com/paris-attack-2015-named-terrorists-all-european-nationals-not-syrian-refugees-2191677
Donald shall overcomb that detail in a few days.
http://www.ibtimes.com/paris-attack-2015-named-terrorists-all-european-nationals-not-syrian-refugees-2191677
Donald shall overcomb that detail in a few days.
Posted by coombz on 2015-11-20 23:55:45
Obama is Bush 2.0
Hilary is being set up to win the 2016 election - not a single decent Republican candidate, and the people that own the Dems and the media are behind her 110%
sad times for us all :/
even as a left-leaning bloke I'd rather see almost anyone in the WH than Hilary
Hilary is being set up to win the 2016 election - not a single decent Republican candidate, and the people that own the Dems and the media are behind her 110%
sad times for us all :/
even as a left-leaning bloke I'd rather see almost anyone in the WH than Hilary
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-11-22 04:44:33
Probably too late for Brasky to enter the race then...