Posted by koadah on 2022-04-06 00:12:38

But...

We can still play 2016. :)

Posted by Lorebass on 2022-04-06 01:25:21

we can send you the cardboard pieces from the old editions.

Posted by CroixFer on 2022-04-06 01:26:05

+1 to PS

Hope some environment is developed for competitive BB2016... For time being, will stick only o DLE...

Posted by PainState on 2022-04-06 03:55:04

@lorebass
Do you know where to find some, my copy of 1st edition they are all worn out and most are torn. :)

Posted by wintergreen13 on 2022-04-06 10:20:59

but... but...... chainsaws and bombs are better! come over to the dark side, if only for KPL!

Posted by Verminardo on 2022-04-06 10:31:36

You're late to the party man. I've spent the better part of last year in that state. I hate almost all of the changes. I hate all that "for the lulz" nonsense. I hate how ignorant/disrespectful this is of the elegant and condensed design that was CRP (well except CPOMB but that could have been fixed easily). I hate how it so obviously is just milking the fans for money, and GW gets away with it. I hate the artwork, the colour scheme, the squirrels and kegs and those ridiculous feathers. It's all just a really dumb joke now. If CRP is GoT Season 4, BB2020 is GoT Season 8.

And yet it's no use. We live in a world where GW gets away with this (Rage Against The Machine playing in the background). The question is not if BB2020 sucks (it does). The question is, does it suck so much that we'll give up this hobby for it. If you're gonna answer this question with "yes", then frankly you must have been pretty jaded even before the new rules hit. And if the answer is "no", then there is absolutely no use agonising over why it has to be this way. Have to suck it up and move on.

It took me a good while to get there I admit. I'll leave you to it. ;-)

Posted by knine on 2022-04-06 10:46:30

https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=group&op=view&group=14313

Posted by mekutata on 2022-04-06 10:50:33

It's kinda weird how folks are afraid of change.
And doesn't help when you shout.
Why shouldn't this be Blood Bowl?????
No creativity? What does that mean? What boundaries would you like to see being pushed?
You don't know what to say? Maybe express what you want to say besides throwing around with these terms that otherwise remain empty and at most will get agreement from an ever shrinking echo chamber.

I've had my BB20 games before coming to a conclusion. Some changes I like very much, some I don't and others. But that was also the case with the previous edition.
But I notice always the same few people repeating their disapproval from the get-go, while the majority seems perfectly fine enough to just play the new edition.

In another blog post you accuse fumbbl "killed" old school ranked, while it'd be perfectly fine to play there. It's just that most coaches moved on. Same with the box.

Also it's still possible to create your own league environments online and offline with the ability to tweak aspects of the game: You don't like the new skill progression, use the old one. You don't like a separate PA skill, create your own rosters and give players the same PA value as they have AG. You are sad about redrafting (which is not even live yet), don't use it. You don't like the new stars, modify them and bring Ripper back for you own league environment. You don't like dwarfs and elfs, join XXXL. You want old school BB, join koadah's big team projects.

I can also be nostalgic. I remember a time when blog posts on fumbbl where mostly fun and were about promoting activities on this page and focused on the community playing on fumbbl. I think you did your part also when running KPL, after you disappeared other coaches kept it going. Maybe be constructive and reach out to them to create a BB experience to your satisfaction.

Posted by koadah on 2022-04-06 11:23:26

The Buccs are cordially invited to compete in [SL16] Cup.
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=group&op=view&group=10368

Contact me for details on how to make it happen.

Posted by koadah on 2022-04-06 11:26:57

1st Ed?

Ebay.

Posted by ClayInfinity on 2022-04-06 12:37:06

I am a player since 1988 (2nd ed? The one with styrofoam and red and blue plastic teams). I have played BB2020 on table top in both leagues and NAF tourney's and have given fumbbl's C div a big shake.

I have to say I think BB2020 is fantastic, particularly with the spp system, the re-draft and the specialism of throwers (I am in a TT Final with my Elven Union!). I think the game is fine, the move from 2016 to 2020 is nuanced and some of the changes are subtle.

And its still Blood Bowl... I simply dont understand the gnashing of teeth.

Posted by koadah on 2022-04-06 15:25:26

It probably depends on how you liked your blood bowl in the first place.

I've played some 2020 in 145 Club and it is OK at low TV.

But if you got your buzz from the big teams, the big tournaments, the big rivalries... That seems to be mostly gone from the main competitive division.

Is there a reason why we still don't have Majors?

The new Competitive division rules mean that you cannot keep a team at or near Majors shape. So, for people who have only a limited amount of time to play, the Majors are pretty much a no go.

The suggestion was that Seasons would would make it easier for some people to compete. But for some other people Seasons makes it not worth even trying.

If I want to play low TV, I can do that in 145 Club. I don't need a miserable grind through low TV only to have my teams cut down again after (most likely) losing in the first round. ;)

I already have teams that I barely have time to play, without creating new ones.

Part of Fumbbl blood bowl is fine. But part of it was removed without anything being put forward to replace it.
How you feel about it will mostly depend on which part you liked the most.

Posted by razmus on 2022-04-06 17:12:02

I don't think anyone would argue that BB2020 is not worse than BB2016. In many cases much worse.
I wish this were the first game for which I've seen this happen... but it's not.
- D&D from 3.x to 4.0, which then spawned Pathfinder as a direct result... which has started to recover with Fifth edition, which attempts to lean back towards it's early versions...) But at least early versions of the rules are easily available to new players however... so any can be played today.
- Traveller, so many times... to the point where the player base has been splintered so badly that it's nearly impossible to find players. There are eleven different versions with the latest leaning heavily back towards the very first edition. But there are several versions which are available to new players... but mostly I've seen folks acquire older materials to mine for setting details rather than to play older versions.
- GURPS from 3rd to 4th editions... so that the already small player base dropped below critical mass and limps along in things like Dungeon Fantasy and The Fantasy Trip. The older edition rules are still easily available for purchase by new players, and the publisher keeps making older books available because (a) they seem to like/respect their customers, and (b) it's an ongoing revenue stream.

People vote for games with their dollars and their time. But any game needs new players to survive... especially something like Blood Bowl which already has an older player base. GW produces products for Blood Bowl which are unavailable almost immediately... even when they're the current product. A potential new player almost has to acquire the new version to play because the old versions simply aren't available. (Ironically, the exception in this case seems to be caused by the number of coaches leaving the hobby because they really dislike BB2020...)

If you really don't like BB2020 and can't stand to play it, continue to play BB2016 as long as you can find opponents to play. Don't participate in the BB2020 environment. Don't purchase additional BB2020 products. If enough folks vote with their feet, either GW will decide to make changes to make the product more palatable to their audience, or they'll abandon the product and the community dies or regenerates from it's own ashes. (At least community communication and coordination is easier in 2022 than it was the last time GW walked away.)

Posted by PainState on 2022-04-06 19:12:25

"Part of Fumbbl blood bowl is fine. But part of it was removed without anything being put forward to replace it." - Koadah

For me that is exactly what I was searching for. My #1 interest on FUMMBL was the open Ranked/Box, you could play one team for as long as you liked, did not care about TV, if you wanted to play that one team 500 games straight, it was up to you BUT the drive was one team, build legend players and if you managed it right, make a legend "like" team.

My #2 interest has always been about the majors. I love them, I love covering them, for me that is the pinnacle of Blood Bowl. Big name teams and coaches battling it out on the grid iron. This is where I think my big hang up is.....Some coaches thinking have a no cap limit TV system is the problem. Thus introduce Caps by imposing seasons and keeping the teams at certain TV ceiling. That would make it more fair, right? All the years of covering majors it seemed like to me that the same group of around 40 coaches always seemed to be battling it out for the final 16 or 8 spots. Coaching is way more important than the TV of your team. Yes, I do acknowledge that a lot of those coaches had their tournament team and never played them outside of a major, in less they needed one or two games to get some MNG back or round out a player.

This is all gone now with BB2020.

It is now all about TV caps, play a team for 20 games, see how high they can climb and then tear them down. It is all in the name of fairness, right? Fairness in the singular sense of entering a Major Tournament.

My #3 passion has been the KPL..Iam converting it to BB2020 and plan on rising it from the sands of Khemri once again to reclaim its spot as the #1 league on FUMMBL for habving fun.

Have fun guys and keep playing. I need to go back to important things like converting 49 rosters to BB2020.

Posted by BigChiefSittingDuck on 2022-04-06 23:28:16

I've played since 1st Edition too Painstate and must admit I felt the same way as you at first, indeed I still have rather mixed feelings about the new ruleset. It's so sad that Jervis Johnson retired and that within a year or two some 'game designers' of nothing like his calibre took some things way backwards - passing is just a joke now (I mean I won a game recently where my elf opponents accidentally chucked it over half the pitch backwards, where one of my flings casually picked it up and scored. Satisfying? No not really - just utterly stupid), they seem to have tried to enhance the team progression thing but have completely ruined that too (so you get forced to sack most of your players every now and again, and everyone just gets to keep the odd cookie-cutter killer/ballhandler/fouler... fuuunnnnn NOT), and some of the new star players and skills are very poorly designed for game balance. Hell even teams - dwarfs are even stronger than before which is ridiculous with the nerfs to many others, and the seasons now keeping everything in their sweetspot...

However there are a some little good things too - the kick-off events are better (some like Blitz not quite as overpowered), being able to use more than one team reroll per turn is interesting and rewards good play, I'm pleasantly surprised by some other little tweaks like Trained Trolls, and it does at least mean you shouldn't get uber-killer/elfball teams run by folks who have the time to play too much which just mince/ball everything.

Give it a go - it's still Blood Bowl and fun, although I'd agree it's frustratingly one step forwards and two steps back. They really do need to produce a new edition asap (they probably will - money). At the moment it really does feel in some places like they just said 'wouldn't it be cool if there was a skill for this' or 'passes could get deflected', 'teams had to manage budgets' etc., but then just flung stuff in without thinking about the maths, game balance, or you know maybe some playtesting?! The last editions really evolved to a good place, you and I saw that through from 1st edition. While there are some good changes in the new edition, they really have chucked a lot out of the window which is counterproductive and really frustrating. JERVIS COME BACK!!!

Posted by PainState on 2022-04-08 00:05:19

I have now realized when I was driving around in the real world that I might just be in the minority of FUMBBL coaches.

FUMBBL to me is a awesome site for Blood Bowl coaches to play games. What makes it awesome is every coach can "find" what type of Blood Bowl they want to play.

League, stunty, open no cap tv or bb2020 style play.

Iam not saying my prefered, no cap tv open style R/B play is the way to go. That is just why I like FUMBBL.

The greatness of the site is it can support everyone, every play style.

Thus when FUMBBL converted they in essence dumped Open R/B play, no TV cap.

That is just how I feel and in know way is this a attack on FUMBBL or any other coach. I would counter that is the greatness of FUMMBL. Every coach can play this game we like or love in any way they like.

Man, I only converted 6 teams last night for KPL, back to the grind stone.

Posted by koadah on 2022-04-08 14:30:44

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV0wTtiJygY

Posted by JackassRampant on 2022-04-08 15:48:33

I'm finding lots of stuff to like about the new edition. It's got some problems, a cleanup edition that, say, improved Black Orcs and ImpNobs, made Wildly Inaccurate less likely (say, a modified 0 or less), a cap on agent fees (or something of the sort, a sliding scale for older players, maybe), and reduced +ST to 60k might be desirable, but most of the changes have made the game more fun without making it less strategic.

Sure, the massive teams of the LRB6 era are a thing of the past, but it's far from the end of team development. Now it's a different game in different formats: 15-game seasons and a 1350k cap means that you're trying to accelerate a few players while developing several, and every match, the clock is ticking. It really increases the metagaming aspect, and the random vs chosen debate leads rapidly to stylefights and induces a fair bit of individuality for every team without introducing undue wackiness. Yes, they did introduce undue wackiness, but there's totally a baby in that bathwater, and TV-driven matchmaking and progressive multi-season leagues both show it off.

Posted by Harad on 2022-04-08 16:35:16

I'm with you Painstate. The GW changes have essentially caused me to stop. I appreciate that rules changes will always please some people and disappoint others but I feel that: i) the rule changes put a narrower definition on the types of blood bowl that one could play ii) some of the rule changes were poorly thought through and so weren't even achieving what they were meant, as I understand it, to achieve.

Posted by PainState on 2022-04-08 21:19:27

Iam just going to throw this out and see what happens.

What IF? the C and new B div had no seasons? Season play was for L?

Posted by koadah on 2022-04-09 00:08:36

We want The Buccs! We want The Buccs!
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=group&op=view&group=10368

And Milford too!!!!

Posted by SideshowBob on 2022-04-09 07:56:35

I really really really miss the majors. And I find TV Caps and minmaxing your team super boring. I want to skill up my players and never fire guys with skills.

Posted by Calcium on 2022-04-10 22:54:37

I am with you mate, although as like you I've seen so many changes to BB over the years I am rather sanguine about things now...