Posted by King_Ghidra on 2014-03-31 20:03:19

"inoccent children executed before birth"

Interesting definition of abortion there.

Anyway, I hate political discussion on FUMBBL, it has no place here at all. So rated 1 for that.

Posted by PainState on 2014-03-31 20:09:12

The enlighten me on your definiton of abortion, sir.

Posted by PainState on 2014-03-31 20:11:13

I have a sneaky suspicion that the ratings of this blog is going to come down to a popularity contest between PC and myself and have no reflection on content.

Posted by C3I2 on 2014-03-31 20:13:59

Well, assuming the right to life is absolute, it is indeed inconsistent. Note also that the notion that life starts when a human is recognizable so (you can look and recognize) is a distinct western catholic tradition.

Now, assuming you don´t view the right to life as absolute (As in the right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness), you could for example argue that innocents go to heaven, but an un-confessed sinner does not; so the killing of the latter is a greater sin.

But why stop there, why not kill them all and let god recognize his own? Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. ("Kill them. For the Lord knows those that are His own.") - Arnaud Amalric

Posted by Chainsaw on 2014-03-31 20:22:02

A foetus is not a baby. When it becomes a being of sorts, after that abortion is generally illegal anyway. Whilst it is a collection of cells that don't form a functioning brain, it is not alive yet.

If you think it is, then I sure as hell hope you don't masturbate otherwise you are a mass murderer. Or advocate birth control pills etc.

Posted by PainState on 2014-03-31 20:37:33

Well the post by happygrue was intersting because it was an attempt to say pro-life propents are hypocrits.

So I turned it around and stated anybody who is pro abortion but anti capital punishment is also a hypocrit.

The debate on when life begins..well that is a debate I do not feel that needs to happen but it will.

The laws pertaining to abortion vay from state to state.

Posted by fidius on 2014-03-31 20:44:20

PainState, forcing liberals to look in the mirror is unfair, mean-spirited, and racist. Please play by the rules.

Posted by uuni on 2014-03-31 21:29:09

I still think you are morally wrong in killing anyone that does not acutely threaten higher loss of life. Self defense does not entail escalation of loss. Civilized society cannot kill people that are contained.

I still am glad EU hampers US ability to execute people. Woo! :-D (https://fumbbl.com/p/blog&c=uuni&id=14179)

Posted by The_Provocateur on 2014-03-31 21:32:48

Both U.S. Parties are terrible hypocrites, tis' why I am an Independent.

Posted by Frankenstein on 2014-03-31 22:08:24

1) There is no such thing as a right to live within another human being as some kind of parasite. You are not really killing them anyway, you merely remove the bond to their mother without which they can't exist.
2) As a father I can assure you that a foetus is not "an innocent child" anyway. I would even say a newborn is not a real human being yet (though I fully support to consider them such for practical reasons).
3) You eat innocent animals - an adult mammal certainly resembles an adult human being than a newborn.
4) Problem with capitol punishment is that too often innocent people are wrongly charged with fabricated claims. Therefore, to grant the state and its institutions the power over life of death is a long-term recipe for disaster.
5) Curiously, legalisation of abortion has significantly reduced crime rates about 15-20 years later. Unwanted children born under circumstances not suited for raising them properly have been missing to commit them.

There's one point I'll concede though: Abortions should probably not be paid for by taxpayers' money.

Posted by Azure on 2014-03-31 22:37:48

Agree with PainState on this one. The amount of abortions is truly horrifying. People do not take responsibility for their actions.

Then again I frown upon sex outside of marriage or committed relationship. If you are going to have sex - then understand and accept the consequences. I had a friend who just shrugged when she had her 3rd abortion and said to my face, "it is just like getting sick - easy to fix." I am sure I am misquoting her since it was some time ago. I know other people that have had truly agonizing decisions over whether to abort their child or not due to health issues. I certainly can at least understand some cases. However, the vast majority of abortions are just people running from responsibility.

All of this moral yelling about "you should not be killing people" from people who do not bat an eye about abortion is something I really can not understand.

Posted by uuni on 2014-03-31 23:29:45

One can effectively reduce abortions by teaching 13 year olds to use condom. I think in Finland government mandates everyone to have safe sex lessons in school and at least some time all 13 years old were mailed condoms directly to their home. Also, the government youth channel YleX maintains "summer rubber" campaigns in radio and in youth festivals etc.

If you use rubber, you get much less abortions. Side benefit: no STDs! Try it! ;-)

Posted by happygrue on 2014-03-31 23:42:55

Well, I did not want to wade into this, as when I posted that comment I had totally ignored PS's original blog and so I had no idea that PC's blog was a counterflame. When I saw people going ape on PC's blog I almost deleted my post because I realized that it was needlessly inflammatory. I regret it, and I am sorry if I offended anyone.

That said: Whaaaaaaat!? You are extrapolating what I said into all kinds of things that I did not say and do not remotely believe. I am a different person than PC or whoever you have been most recently talking with about this issue. I would call myself strongly pro life if the term wasn't already loaded with baggage. I hate capital punishment as I feel it is horrible to (even if it is rarely) ever put an innocent person to death. I hate abortions for reasons too numerous to go into, and by no means do I take them lightly. My wife and I lost a child to a miscarriage, and it turns out to be (in our case) the same procedure to remove the dead fetus as an abortion. Which was fantastic because even though our insurance would have covered a live birth it didn't cover the miscarriage so we had a delightful bill from the hospital. Oh, and it was discovered on Valentines day and had to be done immediately, so ... all in all it was the worst day of my life without question. Every time I hear of someone having an abortion I think back to the loss I felt that day, and I am filled with sadness. I truely don't understand how someone could choose that path - but I am not prepared to throw stones at their choice either. I wish we lived in a world where people didn't feel the need to do such things, but for reasons that I am not prepared to judge some people do make those choices. And there are reasons, very compelling reasons. I have never been raped. If I had been, then perhaps I would feel differently about having an abortion. The list goes on...

As much as I recoil at preventing a life that could have been, I become irate when I hear someone speak in support of putting a person to death while in the next breath condemn someone else (in this case, me it seems) as immoral and labeling them part of the "pro abortion" crowd. We're all adults here, and it is clear that the the purpose of this blog is to implicate me as a part of that mass. I will be more careful not to use inflammatory language in the future. This is a hotbutton issue as you say, and there is no excuse for what I wrote. I believe there is even less excuse for what you implied PainState, and I would appreciate you being more careful in the future as well. No need to delete this - we're all adults here, but let's remind each other to keep it civil, shall we?

Posted by PainState on 2014-04-01 00:13:38

What da heck is going on? The ratings are going up!!!!

grue I will respond when I have time to write a well written response.

Posted by PaddyMick on 2014-04-01 14:10:13

@happygrue - that makes a hell of a lot of sense, good post

Posted by PainState on 2014-04-01 17:59:39

happrygrue: Here we go

I did not post your comments because I felt they were needlessly infalammatory..I posted this because I thought it was a well thought out statment that was thought provocting based on the PC blog.

You made a very short and to the point comment. I reversed your comment to make a larger point. I then stated the reasons why I thought this juxtaposition was a valid comment. At that point I let it stand, the statement was made.

That was when I transitioned into adding onto PC's blog with some stats of my own to make the case that the # of convicts executed in the United States is actually very, very small and then compared it to the # of abortions in the US to bring it back full circle to the original point I had made in response to your statement.

I did not extrapolate or implied, imo, anything beyond responding to your thought provocting statement. In fact I feel I was very restrained in making sure the response was just that and not something more. I feel you extrapolated my simple response with a much deeper meaning. Much like what PC did on my first blog.

And then this statement sprange up by Frankenstein which I find very interesting to.

"1) There is no such thing as a right to live within another human being as some kind of parasite. You are not really killing them anyway, you merely remove the bond to their mother without which they can't exist.
2) As a father I can assure you that a foetus is not "an innocent child" anyway. I would even say a newborn is not a real human being yet (though I fully support to consider them such for practical reasons).
3) You eat innocent animals - an adult mammal certainly resembles an adult human being than a newborn.
4) Problem with capitol punishment is that too often innocent people are wrongly charged with fabricated claims. Therefore, to grant the state and its institutions the power over life of death is a long-term recipe for disaster.
5) Curiously, legalisation of abortion has significantly reduced crime rates about 15-20 years later. Unwanted children born under circumstances not suited for raising them properly have been missing to commit them.

There's one point I'll concede though: Abortions should probably not be paid for by taxpayers' money."

I find it interesting on 2 fronts.

1)Point #1, 2, 5 are common arguments made for abortion. Those 4 points are part of the founding charter of Planned Parenthood in the United States since the 20's.

2)#4 is the idea that the "State" should not have the "right" to kill its citizens, even convicts who have commited grievous crimes. This is interesting to me because it takes the debate to a diffrent level of discussion. It is now of a political nature, limiting the power of the "state". So the discussion then is no longer about the convict but rather a discussion of the scope and reach of the government.

Sidenote: point #3 I think was thrown in there from PETA and Frankenstein is just hobnobbing trying to get some brownie points from them.

Which brings up this issue. There are many people who would say that this specific convict should be executed BUT I do not believe the "state" has that right to kill him. So now they are conflicted. But one position must come first. Which one?

That is when people lean on their political ideology. Every hot button issue at the very core is a discussion of political idelogy. The actual hot button, abortion, capital punishment and so forth are just the side show to the real debate. The never ending political ideolgical discussion.

So as an example I could convice, lets just say Frankenstein, that abortion after X weeks is bad, he agrees with me. I convice him that capital punishment is a good thin and he agrees with me. BUT those are two issues, discussed and debated but they happen in the void, seperate from each other. In order for me to trully convince Frankenstein to my position, well, now I would have to convince him that his political ideology, which he laid bare with his comment, is wrong and mine is right. That mountain is to steep to climb and I have no hope in ever convincing him that is ideology is what the real issue is not his stance on one particular issue, like abortion.

Which in the end is why politicians stay away from Hot Button issues because they know deep down this is a ideological discussion and not a disccussion of that particular hot button issue. Thus they let courts decide these matters because there are no votes to be lost if the court decided. They can always fall back on the time honored: "Hey I tried but my hands are tied by the courts. I will push a bill to reverse this tragedy in, ah, 7 years."

Posted by Frankenstein on 2014-04-04 22:20:38

I don't really have a problem with killing murderers theoretically. If you support capitol punishment you condone the murder of innocent people, though. You simply can't have one without the other as wrong convictions do happen. This is not so much a question of ideology, as you allege, it's about opportunity costs. In the real world, trials are neither flawless nor unbiased enough to reduce the number of wrong convictions to an acceptable number. Common Sense != Ideology.

I mean, seriously, just remember Amanda Knox: An innocent girl accused of murder by a psychologically disturbed prosecutor obsessed with hallucinating satanic conspiracies everywhere. With capitol punishment, less public support and less cute appearance, she might have been executed merely for being at the wrong place the wrong time. I think you know that she's been innocent, if not then I'd suggest reading the information provided by former FBI agent Steve Moore on the subject under this link:

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/fbi.html

Point 4 got nothing to do with PETA btw but first hand experience. Don't know whether you ever had pets and how strongly you bonded with them. A newborn infant, in comparison, is more or less just an empty shell with tons of potential. I'm not a vegetarian either (though I definitely would be if I could be 100% certain that I won't miss any crucial vitamins).

I'd also like to add that I used to judge such matters with an ideological bias (which is a typically left trait). Nowadays I am more leading towards Tea Party and Libertarian positions as their arguments are frequently more substantiated compared to those provided by Keynesians and socialists (especially due to the latters' fallacies with regard to economics). Doesn't mean that I wouldn't support positions where the lefties are actually right (even though accidentally).